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Suezoled
Illuminator

Registered: Sep 2003
Location: New York, upstate
Posts: 3803

Re: Re: Re: Funny...

quote:
Originally posted by KRAMER
And then, we'd all go to jail. It's called FRAUD.


"Sylvia Brown"

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Homeopathy= Anything described as "homeopathic" that is given to a patient before a medical improvement -Badly Shaved Monkey


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Old Post 02-10-2005 02:29 PM
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Keri
New Member

Registered: Jan 2005
Location: Westminster, CO
Posts: 13

quote:
For those of you who are interested in visiting what appears to be Sean's site (based on announcements on some of the pages by peebrain as administrator)

I suggest you take a good look at the Help page:

http://www.psipog.net/help.php

Especially the item titled: "Can I see a demonstration of your skills?":


Jmercer you beat me too it! I was going to mention that peebrains website gives a pretty good idea of what his claim might be.

Peebrain is part of a student group that believes they and others have psychic abilities. No more mystery.

Sean, I know you have gotten mixed responses from other forum members to your posts. Regardless of how you perceive your treatment from Kramer, Randi or others, I think you would have to agree that I have made every attempt to treat you with respect and answer your questions to the best of my ability.

So I am asking you do the same for me. I am not trying to harass or intimidate you. I don't think you should have to leave these boards if you don't apply for the challenge. But I would like you to explain to me if you believe that your psychic abilities can be demonstrated and tested. And perhaps you could explain in more detail what your abilities are.

I know posting on a board full of people who disagree with you is difficult. I cannot guarantee that you will not be made fun of. However, if you really do have demonstrable psychic or other abilities, it is worth blowing off some mean comments to demonstrate something that would really change the nature of science. I assume you think that your abilities have positive uses that can benefit others. If you can show this it could be studied and perhaps could lead to helping many others.

I do not want to mislead you. I do not think you will be able to demonstrate your abilities in a conclusive manner. I don’t doubt you personally; I just think that if such power existed with any sort of frequency, someone would have demonstrated it to JREF or any number of other valid scientific institutions by now.

But perhaps I am wrong. I strive to have the best most accurate knowledge I can. I try to have the best informed opinions I can. I try not to be dogmatic; I do change my opinions when I am shown that I was wrong. I encourage you to open up the line of dialogue.

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Old Post 02-10-2005 02:31 PM
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specious_reasons
Muse

Registered: Jul 2002
Location: Brookfield, IL
Posts: 797

Unlikely that you'll listen to my opinion....

Here's a rhetorical question: How would you or Randi handled this differently if this were a reporter confirming that the $1 million is completely legitimate? Would you request that the reporter apply or go away?

quote:
Originally posted by KRAMER

[...snip...]
Or is "APPLY OR GO AWAY" rude, too? I predict you'll say that it was.
[...snip...]
From this point forward, I will say nothing in response to similar "inquiries" (regardless of what my experience tells me about their true nature) except the following:

Please feel free to submit a duly executed JREF Paranormal Challenge application at any time, should you feel that you have a paranormal claim that you can successfully demonstrate."

I will respond to nagging, unreasonable inquiries with this single sentence 3 or 4 times, and then, if the same questions persist persist, I will simply stop responding.

Does this sound fair, and, more importantly, POLITE?
[...snip...]



I think the sentiment behind "APPLY OR GO AWAY" is correct for people who persist, but it's not polite. I'm confused that this isn't obvious.

The second statement is better, but it probably doesn't get to the same point.

How about?

The JREF considers the Challenge rules sufficent to explain the Challenge process to a non-applicant. Please feel free to submit a duly executed JREF Paranormal Challenge application at any time,
should you feel that you have a paranormal claim that you can successfully demonstrate.

From my perspective, it's saying "APPLY OR GO AWAY" without it sounding like a command.

If they are only inquiring about the validity of the $1 million:

The JREF considers the Goldman Sachs letter sufficient confirmation of the existence and validity of the Challenge funds. If you wish to receive this letter, [insert brief instructions to receive the letter].

Just my $0.02 on what should be said, I'm sure others could provide more elegant text.

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Old Post 02-10-2005 02:32 PM
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jmercer
Muse

Registered: Jan 2005
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 580

In Sylvia's case, you'd have to prove she's lying when she makes a prediction. Subjective evidence, to say the least. In the JREF's case, the claim about the funds is an objective statement. Either the funds exist as stated or they don't.

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Old Post 02-10-2005 02:35 PM
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CFLarsen
Penultimate Amazing

Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Denmark
Posts: 13896

specious_reasons,

Again, it's so simple.

If you have a paranormal claim, apply. Here's the application form, complete with instructions.

If you want to know if the money is there, here's the statement from Goldman Sachs. Any reporter worth his salt will check it.

Everything else is male bovine manure.

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Old Post 02-10-2005 02:36 PM
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jmercer
Muse

Registered: Jan 2005
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 580

Re: Unlikely that you'll listen to my opinion....

quote:
Originally posted by specious_reasons
Here's a rhetorical question: How would you or Randi handled this differently if this were a reporter confirming that the $1 million is completely legitimate? Would you request that the reporter apply or go away?


Having a background in newspaper and magazine publishing, I've known a lot of reporters. A professional reporter (as opposed to a muckraker) would probably have accepted the Goldman Sachs letter as sufficient proof for purposes of the interview.

They might have independently contacted Goldman Sachs to confirm that the letter wasn't forged after the interview, but it's highly unlikely that they would have ignored the letter and persisted in challenging JREF on the subject once it was presented.

(Edited to change "certainly" to "probably" in the first paragraph.)

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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmond Burke

"We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth.... For my part, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst; and to provide for it." - Patrick Henry

Last edited by jmercer on 02-10-2005 at 02:51 PM

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Old Post 02-10-2005 02:42 PM
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specious_reasons
Muse

Registered: Jul 2002
Location: Brookfield, IL
Posts: 797

quote:
Originally posted by CFLarsen
specious_reasons,

Again, it's so simple.

If you have a paranormal claim, apply. Here's the application form, complete with instructions.

If you want to know if the money is there, here's the statement from Goldman Sachs. Any reporter worth his salt will check it.

Everything else is male bovine manure.


Isn't that the same thing as I said? What I'm primarily concerned about here is that my experience says that it's more beneficial to be polite yet firm when dealing with people who are potential cranks.

Most reporters would identify themselves, unless, possibly, they were told beforehand that people from JREF are rude and abrasive when asked about matters concerning the veracity of the $1 million....

...and you have higher confidence in any reporter's fact-checking than I do.

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Old Post 02-10-2005 02:47 PM
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CFLarsen
Penultimate Amazing

Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Denmark
Posts: 13896

quote:
Originally posted by specious_reasons
...and you have higher confidence in any reporter's fact-checking than I do.


Well, I did say "worth his salt"..

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Old Post 02-10-2005 02:52 PM
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specious_reasons
Muse

Registered: Jul 2002
Location: Brookfield, IL
Posts: 797

I'd like to make it clear that I'm trying very hard to be constructive in my criticisms of KRAMER here. So are many of the other people who have taken him to task here. It doesn't always sound like it, I know.

From what he's said, it sounds like he's considered the best criticism and taken some of it to heart, and I'll applaud him for that.

Can we get you to consider taking up Rebecca's offer for better marketing of JREF?

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Old Post 02-10-2005 03:01 PM
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KRAMER
challenge facilitator

Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Broward County, FL.
Posts: 531

Shoestrings...

quote:
Can we get you to consider taking up Rebecca's offer for better marketing of JREF?


This is not an area in which I am involved. You flatter me. I do not possess the powers you ascribe to me.

If, however, I was running this place, an experienced fundraiser would be the first person I'd hire, and I may just hire a 2nd fundraiser (or an assistant for the fundraiser) before I hire a PR person. If I could pay a staff of ten, a PR expert would most certainly be within that mix.

I think that in our line of work, PR can only acheive so much, and we have to prioritize our goals here. Our first goal is to keep our doors open and stay in business. If we fail in that, well, you know.

Which is more important; the work we do, or the manner in which we are perceived whilst doing it?

It's all moot, though. We're on a shoestring here, folks.

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Old Post 02-10-2005 03:37 PM
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jmercer
Muse

Registered: Jan 2005
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 580

Re: Shoestrings...

quote:
Originally posted by KRAMER
Which is more important; the work we do, or the manner in which we are perceived whilst doing it?


I realize you meant this as a rhetorical question, but I think this may be something worth examining. (Although perhaps not here.)

I suspect that both are equally important.

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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmond Burke

"We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth.... For my part, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst; and to provide for it." - Patrick Henry

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Old Post 02-10-2005 03:44 PM
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kittynh
The Hupsu Detective

Registered: Dec 2002
Location:
Posts: 6455

I'm just thinking how I and others use the "million dollar prize". It's something to have in your back pocket. Someone might win it. I mean for goodness sake, if you have a paranormal claim, present it. If you drag big Foot into JREF, dead or alive, or how about some Big Foot DNA, especially alien Big Foot DNA, you are going to get way more than the million dollars! You will be on the cover of every science magazine. (Or alien Big Foot will be).

If any of these claims tests positive, honestly positive ( for instance I score 100% on all my exams because I can read the teachers mind, or anyone's mind) it is worth more than a million dollars. You can bend spoons with your mind? Really, without touching it? From across a room? or even a table? Geez, the military would be interested in that. Industry and medicine would study it. But it has to be clear. Honestly, bending a spoon with your mind while stroking it isn't much a clear savings for mankind over just bending the darn thing.

I say to people that make claims for the healing powers of "touch therapy", well how good is it? I get a "claim" from them. A recent claim was "people with cancer that include healing touch therapy live longer and have a higher cure rate!" I then follow with, "wow, where is your data for this? Is there a study?" In this case, there WAS. I then tell them about the million dollar prize. This is to a healing therapist that is trying to get into a better office space. she was complaining about the costs. If she won the million dollars I point out, she would be doing mankind a great favor, letting them know about the healing powers AND get a bigger office. Heck, she could buy a whole building and would be sending away the patients.

The fudging begins. When she first explained it, it was a straight forward study that PROVES healing touch works. And if it DID work like she says, she would have 2 or 3 million in profits. But she points out that the study is "subjective". That the medical industy doesn't want the drug companies that supply them with all their money....blah de blah de blah.....

In other words, even though doctors KNOW healing touch works, they would rather see people suffer and die than lose any money. Oh she has proof of this also. Well, it's subjective.

I like to pull the million dollars out of the hat to see if they go, "wow, I"m interested." or start fudging. I brought this up in a group. As soon as she started in on the doctor conspiracy she lost almost everyone that she had been impressing. Often the fishy smell comes to your nose as soon as you mention the claim.

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Old Post 02-10-2005 03:46 PM
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KRAMER
challenge facilitator

Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Broward County, FL.
Posts: 531

Re: Re: Shoestrings...

quote:
Originally posted by jmercer
I realize you meant this as a rhetorical question, but I think this may be something worth examining....I suspect that both are equally important.


The work we do is completely under our control.

Our appearance to others is not. Not in the least.

Hence, we concentrate our energies accordingly.

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Old Post 02-10-2005 04:34 PM
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jmercer
Muse

Registered: Jan 2005
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 580

Well... not to quibble, but I think JREF's appearance is under it's control and does matter. What you can't control is how people choose to interpret that appearance.

Where it makes a difference is for individuals like myself, who didn't know what to expect when we wander into JREF's website. If I'd thought that JREF was just interested in trashing paranormal believers - sort of a "Rush Limbaugh" to psychics, I probably would have never come back after my first browse.

I got a different impression, so I stayed and eventually got involved. "Believers" are going to trash JREF no matter what you say or do - I agree. But you don't want to alienate people who don't know squat about the subject or about JREF. If you do, they'll never even look at the work you do.

Just my opinion, of course.

__________________
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmond Burke

"We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth.... For my part, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst; and to provide for it." - Patrick Henry

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Old Post 02-10-2005 04:52 PM
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CFLarsen
Penultimate Amazing

Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Denmark
Posts: 13896

quote:
Originally posted by kittynh
If any of these claims tests positive, honestly positive ( for instance I score 100% on all my exams because I can read the teachers mind, or anyone's mind) it is worth more than a million dollars. You can bend spoons with your mind? Really, without touching it? From across a room? or even a table? Geez, the military would be interested in that. Industry and medicine would study it. But it has to be clear. Honestly, bending a spoon with your mind while stroking it isn't much a clear savings for mankind over just bending the darn thing.


Right on.

The million bucks is a mere pittance, when you consider the groundbreaking consequences of any paranormal phenomenon being proved real.

One million dollars? That will be your take each second, if you can teleport something, read people's minds or even heal any sick persons.

Still, nobody steps up to the plate and collects the first million, immensely easier to claim than the rest of the money, because you don't have to do it in a repeated experiment, subjected to the harsh conditions of science.

All you gotta do is show that you can do it. You don't have to explain it, you don't have to tell us the reasons why it works.

Just do it. Just do what you do, what your customers pay you to do.

Under controlled conditions, of course.

The money's there. Just. Do. It.

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Old Post 02-10-2005 04:55 PM
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Beleth
Graduate Poster

Registered: Dec 2002
Location: Sylvia Browne's back yard
Posts: 1298

Re: Re: Re: Shoestrings...

quote:
Originally posted by KRAMER
The work we do is completely under our control.

Our appearance to others is not. Not in the least.

Sure it is. When Randi gives a speech or an interview, does he show up in Aquaman Underoos and pink bunny slippers, or does he show up in a suit and tie?

Of what value is your work if it, and you, are not respected by your audience? Your appearance is part and parcel of your work.




(I apologize for that mental image.)

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specious_reasons
Muse

Registered: Jul 2002
Location: Brookfield, IL
Posts: 797

Re: Shoestrings...

quote:
Originally posted by KRAMER
This is not an area in which I am involved. You flatter me. I do not possess the powers you ascribe to me.



You're right - that's above and beyond your responsibilities.

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Old Post 02-10-2005 05:02 PM
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jmercer
Muse

Registered: Jan 2005
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 580

Re: Re: Re: Re: Shoestrings...

quote:
Originally posted by Beleth
Sure it is. When Randi gives a speech or an interview, does he show up in Aquaman Underoos and pink bunny slippers, or does he show up in a suit and tie?


(I apologize for that mental image.)



You should. I have to go home and sleep tonight, and if I have a nightmare about Randi, it'll be your fault...

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Old Post 02-10-2005 05:06 PM
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roger
Master Poster

Registered: May 2002
Location: VA
Posts: 2323

Here is a trivially testable claim offered by peabrain (I'm assuming that the peabrain on that site is the same as our poster here - I recognize I may be incorrect in that assumption):

quote:
One of my favorite things to do is to make a psi ball, visualizing it as a ball of fire.... I would make a hot construct and throw it at a thermometer from across the room then watch the degrees rise.

Those are somewhat widely separated sentences, but I didn't want to quote extensively to avoid copyright infringement. But the claim is simple. He creates psi balls (how to do that is explained by him here, makes it hot, and tosses it at a thermometer which registers a temperature rise.

Easy peasy to test. For $1M dollars.

I, with complete seriousness, with no bashing of him intended, hope that Sean submits an application.

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Old Post 02-10-2005 05:16 PM
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kittynh
The Hupsu Detective

Registered: Dec 2002
Location:
Posts: 6455

Wow, that's an easy claim to test. Heck don't bother testing it! Go out and market it. Can you warm up a room? How large a space? Can you teach this to others? If it REALLY works I can think of lots of applications.

Easy million!!! Millions!!!

You know, it's kind of odd how things that really work catch on and make money. like the lightbulb. "I can flick a switch and light comes on instantly!" Caught on pretty quick because IT WORKS.

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Old Post 02-10-2005 06:10 PM
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KRAMER
challenge facilitator

Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Broward County, FL.
Posts: 531

quote:
Originally posted by jmercer
Well... not to quibble, but I think JREF's appearance is under it's control and does matter. What you can't control is how people choose to interpret that appearance.


That's what I meant to say.

Our appearance IS under our control, but how we are perceived, is NOT. Hence, there is only so much that we can do, especially with such a limited staff and budget.

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JREF Paranormal Claims Dept.

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Old Post 02-10-2005 06:26 PM
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KRAMER
challenge facilitator

Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Broward County, FL.
Posts: 531

I'm all for that...

quote:
Originally posted by roger
I, with complete seriousness, with no bashing of him intended, hope that Sean submits an application.


Me, too. So is Randi.

And we mean it.

I guess if he believes in what he claims to be able to do, he will.

Again - why wouldn't he?

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JREF Paranormal Claims Dept.

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Old Post 02-10-2005 06:29 PM
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Shera
New Member

Registered: Feb 2005
Location:
Posts: 9

quote:
The reason why this has turned into such an "ordeal" is solely because you do not play with open cards.


No. The reason this has turned into an ordeal is because Sean's original and logical assumption that the winner gets bonds and not cash was not corrected by either Randi or Kramer in the very beginning.

If either Randi or Kramer had simply told Sean that the prize was CASH I am willing to bet there would have been a total of two e-mails between Sean and the JREF and this thread (179 posts as of now) would never have happened.

Here is Sean's first e-mail (as both per Sean's log at http://s91683501.onlinehome.us/randi.html
and per Kramer's post (first post in this thread)):


From: XXXX
To: randi@randi.org
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 21:04:28 -0500
Subject: 1million Challenge Questions

Hello,
On your website, it states:

"The prize is in the form of negotiable bonds held in a special
investment account."

and

"At the formal test, in advance, an independent person will be placed
in charge of a personal check from James Randi for US$10,000. In the
event that the claimant is successful under the agreed terms and
conditions, that check shall be immediately surrendered to the
claimant, and within ten days the James Randi Educational Foundation
will pay to the claimant the remainder of the reward, for a total of
US$1,000,000. One million dollars in negotiable bonds is held by an
investment firm in New York, in the "James Randi Educational
Foundation Prize Account" as surety for the prize funds. Validation of
this account and its current status may be obtained by contacting the
Foundation by telephone, fax, or e-mail."

My questions surround the form the money is in, and how it will be
delivered. The $10,000 will be delivered in check, which means I will
have access to use it all once the check clears; is this correct? The
bonds I will not have access to, on the other hand... Where do the
bonds come from (what corporations issued the bonds), what are the
interest rates on the bonds, and when is the maturity date on the
bonds? I.e., When will I have access to the $1mil, and how much money
can I expect on a monthly basis generated from interest?

Thank you.

- Sean Connelly



--

Sean's e-mail could have been answered as so:
--
Hello,

The prize is in the form of U.S.A cash paid by check or electronic funds transfer. The winner does NOT get bonds. Since there are no bonds awarded -- there are no bond issuers, maturity dates or interest rates for a winner to be concerned about.

The winner gets a check made out to him or her for USA$10,000.00 immediately upon the conclusion of the formal test. The balance of the award, USA$990,000.00 will be paid to the winner within the following 10 days by either check, EFT or in another agreed upon cash equivalent form.

The present form of the award money is in the form of bonds for our convenience only. We are attaching a copy of a statement from Goldman & Sachs that verifies the existence of the funds. Alternatively you can look up our information return ( 990 ) filed with the IRS for the year 2003 at [ web site address here] to verify that we do have the funds. The 990 was filed by our certified public accountant and agrees with our audited financial statements.

--

That took me less than 2 minutes to write.

--
quote:
We have your word against Kramer's.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by peebrain
And now this false email has sprung up, which is very suspiscious. I emailed Kramer from a private account, that NO ONE knows about. I X'd out my email in the public logs. For someone to fake the email, it would require them to know my email address - and this information isn't available to ANYONE except myself, Kramer, and Randi. I haven't used that particular email account for anything else.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
We only have your word that the account was private


No, we have more than words available to us. As Sean suggested the e-mail headers can be compared. Some of an e-mail header information is forgeable, but not all of it, I believe.



Shera

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Old Post 02-10-2005 06:36 PM
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KRAMER
challenge facilitator

Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Broward County, FL.
Posts: 531

Hello Shera

Greetings and welcome to the forum, Shera.

Might I inquire, just out of curiosity (a skeptical curiosity akin to Sean's skepticism regarding the prize funds, that is)...

I see that you are a new forum member, having only just joined.

Are you perhaps a member of Sean's "student group"?

Just curious.

Needless to say, you don't have to answer if you don't feel that the answer would prove "relevant", as was Sean's assertion when asked repeatedly whether or not he actually had a paranormal claim.

Carpe Diem.

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JREF Paranormal Claims Dept.

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specious_reasons
Muse

Registered: Jul 2002
Location: Brookfield, IL
Posts: 797

quote:
Originally posted by Shera
The reason this has turned into an ordeal is because Sean's original and logical assumption that the winner gets bonds and not cash was not corrected by either Randi or Kramer in the very beginning.



You know, a good portion of this could have been avoided by asking the question in a simpler manner.

i.e:

I read the rules of the challenge, but something wasn't clear: Is the prize money distributed in cash or as bonds with a cash value of $1 milllion?

To me, the above question is entirely reasonable, because it wasn't clear in the rules.

At that point, it would be far more productive to talk to a Goldman Sachs representative to inquire about the bonds. I don't know how much involvement Randi has in the operation of the trust fund, but I doubt he or Kramer has the time and willingness to research the answers to the rest of his questions. Nor should they.

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DAVE!!!

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Old Post 02-10-2005 07:24 PM
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Shera
New Member

Registered: Feb 2005
Location:
Posts: 9

quote:
Greetings and welcome to the forum, Shera.

Thank you Kramer.

quote:
Are you perhaps a member of Sean's "student group"?

Yes, I'm registered at Psipog.

quote:
Needless to say, you don't have to answer if you don't feel that the answer would prove "relevant",


The question does appear to be off topic. However, I tend to be very curious myself. So, as one curious person chatting with another -- I answered your question.

I do suspect however that because I did answer your question that quite a few people posting to this thread will now dismiss the points I brought up -- simply because I said that I'm registered at Psipog and for no other reason.

Cheers,
Shera

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Old Post 02-10-2005 08:52 PM
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jmercer
Muse

Registered: Jan 2005
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 580

Well, I hope you don't count me among those people. I disagreed with your points before this post.

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"We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth.... For my part, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst; and to provide for it." - Patrick Henry

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Old Post 02-10-2005 09:06 PM
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Metullus
Scholar

Registered: Jan 2005
Location: The Redwoods, Nor Cal
Posts: 76

Much ado about, well, not much...

quote:
Originally posted by Shera
[B]No. The reason this has turned into an ordeal is because Sean's original and logical assumption that the winner gets bonds and not cash was not corrected by either Randi or Kramer in the very beginning.



I beg to differ... there is nothing logical in Sean's assumption that the successful claimant will get bonds in lieu of cash. The plain fact is that the rules say that the winner gets $1,000,000.00. Not securities, stocks, bonds, or a secret gold mine valued at $1,000,000.00.

$1,000,000.00. The logical assumption would be that the money would come to the claimant in the form of a check or perhaps an electronic transfer.

Nothing in the language of the rules that I have read suggests otherwise. That the money is for the moment in bonds is not only not surprising, but also to be expected. This is common in both business and government - one does not leave cash just laying around in bank vaults....

Frankly, my initial reaction to Sean's question was that he was trying to yank Randi's chain. I could not fathom that someone would be so, well, challenged as to not understand what was, and is, quite plain:

Win the challange, walk away with $1.000,000.00.

What is so complicated about that?

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Old Post 02-10-2005 09:07 PM
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kittynh
The Hupsu Detective

Registered: Dec 2002
Location:
Posts: 6455

I wonder if there are any kind of tax rules. Just thinking about people that hit the lottery. Though, as I've pointed out, if a claim works, then more than likely the applicant would have to worry about taxes on millions and millions of dollars.

__________________
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"With God gone from his life, he felt reborn and revitalised by an entirely new kind of knowledge." Martin Brookes

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Old Post 02-10-2005 09:22 PM
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Suezoled
Illuminator

Registered: Sep 2003
Location: New York, upstate
Posts: 3803

quote:
Originally posted by Shera
Thank you Kramer.

(snipped)

I do suspect however that because I did answer your question that quite a few people posting to this thread will now dismiss the points I brought up -- simply because I said that I'm registered at Psipog and for no other reason.

Cheers,
Shera



How "polite" and what a judge of character... what a soul to bring forth the effort though that one feels the battle is one that will be lost before it starts... ah, how very much like "To Kill A Mockingbird."

Though, now that that statement was made (Shera's, not mine), it is the statement Shera can fall back on, if he doesn't like the level of debate, it will be because he's already on "Psipog" and so the forum folks here are already prejudiced against that.

How convenient. A million dollar challenge, with the most open of applications, the most negotiable of terms, and the potential for the greatest of rewards, and yet quite a few people will dismiss a new poster's posts, simply because they believe?
It's up to those who believe to take up the Challenge, and less claim the million, and more prove that the ardent passion felt for their belief system has some merit that warrants further investigation.

Apply apply apply. There is nothing to lose, and everything to gain.
And do add to your belief system that to prove the skeptics wrong here would be a most wonderful educational experience for those of us who are skeptics.

As for the rewarding of the prize: why not find out by getting a statement from Goldman and Sachs? Straight from the horse's mouth and all that.

...besides, isn't it NOT about the money and more to benefit mankind?

__________________
"We must always fear the wicked. But there is another kind of evil that we must fear the most, and that is the indifference of good men." -priest guy from Boondock Saints

Homeopathy= Anything described as "homeopathic" that is given to a patient before a medical improvement -Badly Shaved Monkey


"...because I've decided I'll become my own prince!" -Shoujo Kakumei Utena, Adolescence Of

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Old Post 02-10-2005 09:28 PM
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PixyMisa
Graduate Poster

Registered: Dec 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 1162

quote:
Originally posted by kittynh
Wow, that's an easy claim to test. Heck don't bother testing it! Go out and market it. Can you warm up a room? How large a space? Can you teach this to others? If it REALLY works I can think of lots of applications.

Easy million!!! Millions!!!


If he can do that he'd most likely be violating either the first or second law of thermodynamics.

That would be worth trillions. Seriously.

If he can do that, arguing about the JREF million is like someone with an attic full of (authentic) van Goghs washing windscreens for spare change. Absurd.

__________________
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There are no stupid questions, only stupid people.

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jmercer
Muse

Registered: Jan 2005
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 580

quote:
Originally posted by Suezoled
How "polite" and what a judge of character... what a soul to bring forth the effort though that one feels the battle is one that will be lost before it starts... ah, how very much like "To Kill A Mockingbird."


Dang, that was almost poetic!

__________________
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmond Burke

"We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth.... For my part, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst; and to provide for it." - Patrick Henry

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Old Post 02-10-2005 10:21 PM
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Metullus
Scholar

Registered: Jan 2005
Location: The Redwoods, Nor Cal
Posts: 76

C'mon, get smart!

Its the Tequila Mockingbird!

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Old Post 02-10-2005 10:45 PM
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jmercer
Muse

Registered: Jan 2005
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 580

quote:
Originally posted by Metullus
C'mon, get smart!

Its the Tequila Mockingbird!



You mean it's a direct quote from it? Haven't read that book in... hm... 34 years? OUCH!

__________________
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmond Burke

"We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth.... For my part, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst; and to provide for it." - Patrick Henry

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Old Post 02-10-2005 10:48 PM
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Metullus
Scholar

Registered: Jan 2005
Location: The Redwoods, Nor Cal
Posts: 76

quote:
Originally posted by kittynh
I wonder if there are any kind of tax rules. Just thinking about people that hit the lottery. Though, as I've pointed out, if a claim works, then more than likely the applicant would have to worry about taxes on millions and millions of dollars.


You are absolutely right, the taxes would be significant. Makes the whole effort seem hardly worth the trouble, doesn't it?

I guess I won't apply.

Unless JREF will cover the taxes for me.

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Old Post 02-10-2005 10:51 PM
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Metullus
Scholar

Registered: Jan 2005
Location: The Redwoods, Nor Cal
Posts: 76

quote:
Originally posted by jmercer
You mean it's a direct quote from it? Haven't read that book in... hm... 34 years? OUCH!


Actually, I would not know a literary quote from a dispeptic goat, but I do know my 60's television.

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Old Post 02-10-2005 10:58 PM
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Suezoled
Illuminator

Registered: Sep 2003
Location: New York, upstate
Posts: 3803

quote:
Originally posted by jmercer
You mean it's a direct quote from it? Haven't read that book in... hm... 34 years? OUCH!


No, I really do make my own long-winded statements from my own meandering brain pan.

Hey, if someone does win the million, give the rest to charity. Make a big show of it, like you're this great spiritual enlightened guru. The world will watch this exchange, and flood to you in even more droves than if you kept the million. It would be a wise invenstment, pal, since you'd make back that million and then some!

__________________
"We must always fear the wicked. But there is another kind of evil that we must fear the most, and that is the indifference of good men." -priest guy from Boondock Saints

Homeopathy= Anything described as "homeopathic" that is given to a patient before a medical improvement -Badly Shaved Monkey


"...because I've decided I'll become my own prince!" -Shoujo Kakumei Utena, Adolescence Of

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Old Post 02-10-2005 11:24 PM
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DevilsAdvocate
Thinker

Registered: Nov 2004
Location:
Posts: 141

Re: Funny...

quote:
Originally posted by KRAMER
I should have simply said "APPLY OR GO AWAY" until I became convinced that it was useless to continue doing so, and then I ought to have just ignored his subsequent emails.
No, no, no. You should have said, "The statement in our website that "the prize is in the form of negotiable bonds" is perhaps not clear. Thank you for bringing this to our attention. This language will be reviewed possible changes.

As stated in the challenge rules, the bonds act as surety; JREF will actually pay the prize winner a total of US $1,000,000. If you wish to apply, please submit an application in accordance with the challenge rules."

I don't think I'm off the deep end in suggesting that you should thank someone for pointing out (apparently agreeably) unclear language on a website. I think Sean (no matter his motives) had good questions, and JREF (eventually) made changes to their website because he raised good questions.

This was an isolated incident where some guy actually pointed out something that was quite right. So acknowledge it, fix it, and move on. That shouldn't be a cause for JREF or Kramer to completely change procedures. People that are belligerent about these issues (and at last initially, I see no evidence that Sean was) should not be given form letters, FAQs, or endless responses: they should be given the ol' heave ho. I'm convinced Kramer has a much better sense of this than I do (and I'd like it if Kramer continued to post more of these types of things so that I could pick up more on that sense).

The only red flag here is that the guy actually had a point about the language not being clear (at least that is how I read the guy's initial correspondence; I think he later did get a bit belligerent), and the questionable language was later changed or removed, but the initial responses from Randi and Kramer completely dismissed the guy's (legitimate) concern about the prize being paid in the form of negotiable bonds. That red flag is whether Randi and Kramer actually read and understand what applicants, potential applicants, enquirers, or whatever have to say before giving the heave ho.

I certainly don't want to see spoon-feeding, or even FAQs or form letters. Or even politeness. Rudeness has its place. I don’t think there should be any change to the way Randi and Kramer handle challenge other than to pause and understand what someone is saying before dismissing it outright. That is all. I'll leave with a quote:

quote:
Originally said by Davy Crockett
Be sure you are right, then go ahead."

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DevilsAdvocate
Thinker

Registered: Nov 2004
Location:
Posts: 141

Re: Much ado about, well, not much...

quote:
Originally posted by Metullus
I beg to differ... there is nothing logical in Sean's assumption that the successful claimant will get bonds in lieu of cash.
Yes. There is something. Or at least there was. In the guy's very first communication he said:

quote:
On your website, it states:
"The prize is in the form of negotiable bonds held in a special
investment account."
That would allow for a logical assumption that the successful claimant will get bonds. The questionable sentence doesn't exactly say that, but you could interpret the sentence to mean "The prize is bonds". It is just not a very clear sentence. It is missing some implied words: "The surety for the prize...", "The money is held...", etc. Not a big deal. It should have been simply cleared up a long time ago. And JREF should have recoginzed the little problem of the wording and fixed it and moved on.

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Old Post 02-11-2005 12:01 AM
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Beth Clarkson
Scholar

Registered: Dec 2004
Location:
Posts: 96

quote:
Originally posted by PixyMisa
Piffle.

Everyone who applies for the challenge is either delusional or a fraud. Everyone.



People here wonder why JREF gets so few serious claimants. I think this quote sums it up nicely. This attitude is pervasive in JREF. Anyone who applies is considered to be either delusional or a fraud and it treated as such - not a pleasant experience. Brusqueness, which is often perceived as rudeness, is typical. People with high sensitivity to the emotions of others (which is typical of those who are earnestly exploring psychic phenomena) are repelled by such treatment and often go away rather than continue the process. I know, via private correspondence, of at least one claimant who felt that way and withdrew her claim.

Those who are concerned about the appearance of the challenge and its legitimacy to those unfamiliar with it have a valid point.

Beth

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