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PixyMisa
Graduate Poster

Registered: Dec 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 1162

quote:
Originally posted by specious_reasons
Considering that major "psychics" like Sylvia and Alison DuBois contest the reality of the million (regardless of the facts), some unknown person, aware that there might be a controversy over the existence of the million, so this person might ask someone competent to do the research.

Piffle.

Everyone who applies for the challenge is either delusional or a fraud. Everyone.

It's not a case of dealing with mostly honest customers and a few bad apples. First, these aren't customers, they are people who want JREF to give them something. Second, none of them, not one, have anything to offer.

A large part of Kramer's job seems to be separating the deluded-but-otherwise-honest applicants from the frauds and timewasters (and the out-and-out loonies).

The frauds and timewasters should be told to take a hike. They deserve no more, and probably less.

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Old Post 02-09-2005 04:44 PM
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jmercer
Muse

Registered: Jan 2005
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 580

Oh, my goodness, Pixy... I have to take lessons from you in brevity.

(writes down notes)

Well said!

__________________
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmond Burke

"We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth.... For my part, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst; and to provide for it." - Patrick Henry

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Old Post 02-09-2005 05:16 PM
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peebrain
New Member

Registered: Jul 2004
Location:
Posts: 12

quote:
Originally posted by KRAMER
A verification letter from Goldman Sachs was sent immediately to this potential applicant, the very day we received his request


Where was this letter sent? To my email address? The only letters I received where the emails between Randi, and you, Kramer. A log of exactly what I have received is here:
http://s91683501.onlinehome.us/randi.html

I have not received anything in my email account from "Goldman Sachs", and I haven't given you my home address, so I highly doubt you're mailing me a letter.

~Sean

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Old Post 02-09-2005 05:39 PM
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kittynh
The Hupsu Detective

Registered: Dec 2002
Location:
Posts: 6455

Look if posts get reported we have to treat those reports with respect. Seriously.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kramer, does this mean you AREN'T going to post my recent PM to you?

You will be to blame if the million dollars just goes without any warning before hand. Keep an eye on the mail, that heavenly glowing package is from ME! You have my address right? Remind me to send you my legal name for the check.

I resent the implication that everyone that contacts Kramer about the prize is delusional or a fraud.

I haven't been delusional since I last oil painted without opening a window(it was winter....)

Fraud, ha! I gave that up after the whole, "Van Gogh did not use Sharpies" disaster.

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"With God gone from his life, he felt reborn and revitalised by an entirely new kind of knowledge." Martin Brookes

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Old Post 02-09-2005 05:40 PM
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PixyMisa
Graduate Poster

Registered: Dec 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 1162

Da Vinci, I told her. You know where you are with da Vinci. But did she listen? No, had to be van Gogh.

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Old Post 02-09-2005 05:48 PM
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peebrain
New Member

Registered: Jul 2004
Location:
Posts: 12

quote:
Originally posted by KRAMER
Form your own opinion from Sean's latest email:

[B]Dear Kramer,

I was unaware that you were posting messages. I do not wish to pursue this matter further.

Incidentally,after looking around your site, I find your work very interesting, and I wish you luck with refuting claims that are not valid. A great deal of progress that has been made in our world has been made from people such as yourself who have said "No. That is not true. That is absurd." There are certainly a lot of off the wall things being said on your website.

Would you kindly take my messages off of the internet? I thought that the messages were going to be kept private. I see that you are very tough with people who cannot back up their claims, and I respect you for it. The world needs someone like you bury kooky ideas and claims.

Please e-mail me to confirm that you have taken the messages off.

Good luck in your endeavors to refute the absurd!

-Sean



I did not send you this email. If you have received this email, then it is a fraud posing as me. These are not my words, I never wrote anything like that. Someone is lieing. The exact transcript of what I have sent is located at:
http://s91683501.onlinehome.us/randi.html

THAT is all I've sent, and THAT is all I've received. I will keep a public copy of everything I have written so you can check to see if I truly wrote it. Again: I did NOT write the message above. If you have received that in your email, then it is a fraud. Perhaps we can check the message headers.

~Sean

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Old Post 02-09-2005 05:50 PM
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specious_reasons
Muse

Registered: Jul 2002
Location: Brookfield, IL
Posts: 797

quote:
Originally posted by PixyMisa
Piffle.

Everyone who applies for the challenge is either delusional or a fraud. Everyone.



I don't understand. I think the Challenge has to be credible, or it is useless, utterly useless. Even if everyone who applies or inquires are delusional or frauds.

In order to verify its credibility, you have to apply to the Challenge or else be brushed off by two curmudgeonly people?

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Old Post 02-09-2005 06:33 PM
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AmateurScientist
JREF Kid

Registered: Dec 2001
Location:
Posts: 1676

quote:
Originally posted by kittynh
Look if posts get reported we have to treat those reports with respect. Seriously.




What if I reported this post, Kitty? Do you think it should be afforded respect?

I have little to no respect for inappropriately delicate sensibilities. In this instance, the person or persons doing the reporting weren't even the posters ostensibly insulted. Why should the report of kidding around be treated with respect?

I don't get it at all. I loathe tattletelling. It deserves no respect, period. Seriously.

AS

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Old Post 02-09-2005 06:34 PM
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PixyMisa
Graduate Poster

Registered: Dec 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 1162

quote:
Originally posted by specious_reasons
I don't understand. I think the Challenge has to be credible, or it is useless, utterly useless. Even if everyone who applies or inquires are delusional or frauds.

In order to verify its credibility, you have to apply to the Challenge or else be brushed off by two curmudgeonly people?


No.

But incessant questioning of the credibility of the Challenge fully merits a curmudgeonly brush-off.

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There are no stupid questions, only stupid people.

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Old Post 02-09-2005 06:43 PM
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peebrain
New Member

Registered: Jul 2004
Location:
Posts: 12

jmercer has posted a summary. I'm sorry for making multiple posts, but I'm sort of reading the latest updates as I'm going along, and commenting on each post as I come across it. I'll try to put the quotes from jmercer in italics.

Sean began his dialogue with JREF questioning the financial structure, availability and soundness of the million-dollar prize. He did so without submitting a claim, and refused to confirm or deny his intentions regarding submitting a claim. In other words, he simply questioned them about the money without any other justification for his queries than an apparent desire to know about the funds.

I agree.

JREF's immediate (and apparently standard) reaction was to have Goldman-Sachs send him a letter verifying the availability of the funds. (This action was cited in Kramer's second post in this thread.) Additionally, the founder of the organization (Randi) assured Sean via email that the bonds were immediately convertible into money.

No, I disagree. I first sent an email to Randi, and his immediate response was "I know nothing about your personal financial situation, which would dictate the answers to your questions...". Then I replied, and he replied with "If that's your problem, I can't take the time to console you. Apply, or go away." This was the intial contact. A log of this contact is available on the same place I keep referencing:
http://s91683501.onlinehome.us/randi.html

This apparently didn't satisfy Sean and he continued to pressure Kramer and Randi for more information. Apparently, it was at this point that both Randi and Kramer - based on their experience - determined that they were once again being jerked around by someone intent on wasting their limited time.

I continued to pressure Randi, yes. Because at the time I felt he sidestepped my question, or didn't understand it. It is my understanding that Randi passed me off to Kramer. The first contact I had with Kramer was when Kramer emailed me saying that I should direct all questions to him, instead of Randi. This, again, can be seen in the email log.

Kramer became curt - and yes, even somewhat rude - during his correspondence with Sean after this realization. However, from Kramer's perspective and experience, this was an utter dead-end, time-wasting discussion that had nothing to do with the primary purpose of Kramer's job - that of handling and processing claims.

Kramer was immediately curt. In his reply from my first email to him, he told me I was full of sh*t.

Kramer then started this thread as an example of the types of non-claim nonsense that comes in for him to handle, and how some of these people simply demand attention and time from JREF without any intention of making a claim.

I agree.

Sean, utterly gratis, joined the forum as "peebrain" - a vulgar reference obviously designed to get attention and sympathy about how he felt he was treated - and immediately posted about his confusion concerning bonds vs. cash. (Failing, I note, to mention anything at all about the letter from Goldman-Sachs and why it was insufficient to answer his questions.)

Wrong. "Peebrain" has been my internet handle for 9 years. If this becomes a serious point, I can provide proof, but it's kind of silly in general. Actually, I had been a member from before, as you can check my Join date from my posts (July 2004 I think my join date is). I failed to mention the "Goldman Sachs" mail because I didn't receive it. Where is this? Did I miss it while reading the posts?

Following that post, Sean also launched a diatriabe against Kramer, accusing him of modifying the emails listed to show himself and Randi in a better light, etc. When he didn't get the reaction he wanted, he then complained that Kramer provided the answer to his questions in the forum, but refused to do so to him in email.

He DID modify the emails. If you compare what Kramer wrote on the forums, to what I have been subject to in private, it is a significant difference.

(Which, of course, was not true. There was nothing in the forum post that wasn't both in the emails and available in the agreement that Sean himself had cited during his private emails to JREF.)

I disagree. There was NO conversation about my questions in the emails, other than "NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS".

He then claimed that his confusion was that he (Sean) thought the bonds were the prize. (So why didn't he simply ask the question "Are the bonds the prize, or do you pay out in cash?" instead of asking all sorts of detailed questions about the bonds themselves?)

This confusion came as a realization AFTER this thread was created. My initial question was based on the assumption the bonds where the prize. This assumption is an honest mistake, which is understandable enough for Kramer to edit the Challenge page.

When a number of posters began to respond to Sean's comments by asking about what his claim is, he provided completely evasive answers - just as he did to Randi and Kramer.

Again, I don't see how my paranormal claims relate to the relevance of my questions.

Keri then did a wonderful job of explaining to Sean how the financial aspect of using bonds as liquid assets normally works. Sean thanked her, but also responded by saying he still doubted the existence of the funds. (There's a big "Aha!" right here in my opinion.)

Yes, I still question it. Kramer didn't confirm any information Keri provided. Keri was not a representative of JREF, or connected to the Challenge in any way. She did a wonderful job presenting useful information - I agree.

Keri posted a link to JREF's 990 from 2003. Sean ignored that post (in fact, he never posted here again) and sent Kramer a private email accusing him of evading Sean's questions. Kramer posted that email in this thread.

I disagree. The last email I've sent Kramer is logged on my private website. It is dated "Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 16:20:03 -0500". The post of myself stating that I wasn't going to reply is dated: "02-07-2005 04:05 PM". Clearly, my post came AFTER my last e-mail.

Sean then sent Kramer this (apparently) final email:

Completely disagree. I did NOT write that e-mail. I don't know who did.

If I've misrepresented the intent of Sean's posts or emails, please correct me.

Which is the intention of this post. I'm sorry if this is a long read :-/.

When you look at all of this in context, Sean wasted Randi's time; Kramer's time; ignored all the information he was given; attacked Kramer and JREF; wasted OUR time in the forums; created an internal furor over JREF and Kramer; outright lied about some things (see above) and apparently never intended to submit a claim! And to create all this confusion, all he did was ask a valid question - then continually refused to accept the responses given.

This is not true. What did I lie about? I have interest in submitting a claim, but after this fiasco, I'm a little unsure. Still, my point is, which I keep repeating: I don't believe my claim is relevant to my questions.

(Personally, I'm glad this jerk was given short shrift - he deserved it.)

I believe you are judging that based on a scewed perspective. I have corrected the parts I found inaccurate in your summary. Perhaps you can re-evaluate my questions and intentions.

~Sean

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Old Post 02-09-2005 06:51 PM
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kittynh
The Hupsu Detective

Registered: Dec 2002
Location:
Posts: 6455

quote:
Originally posted by AmateurScientist
What if I reported this post, Kitty? Do you think it should be afforded respect?

I have little to no respect for inappropriately delicate sensibilities. In this instance, the person or persons doing the reporting weren't even the posters ostensibly insulted. Why should the report of kidding around be treated with respect?

I don't get it at all. I loathe tattletelling. It deserves no respect, period. Seriously.

AS





We're talking about treating people that apply for the million dollars with respect. If you reported my post, believe it or not there is a system for dealing with it. Even if we disagree with your report, you deserve the respect of us looking at it. You have to ability to complain, or to report the people reporting you. The right to report any post you feel needs reporting is an option for any forum member. Even tattletales.

Cleo, hey, don't I have a retainer with you?

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"With God gone from his life, he felt reborn and revitalised by an entirely new kind of knowledge." Martin Brookes

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Old Post 02-09-2005 07:09 PM
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jmercer
Muse

Registered: Jan 2005
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 580

quote:
Originally posted by peebrain
jmercer has posted a summary. I'm sorry for making multiple posts, but I'm sort of reading the latest updates as I'm going along, and commenting on each post as I come across it. I'll try to put the quotes from jmercer in italics.

[snipped a lot of stuff]

I believe you are judging that based on a scewed perspective. I have corrected the parts I found inaccurate in your summary. Perhaps you can re-evaluate my questions and intentions.

~Sean



Thanks for replying. It'll be interesting to see what everyone thinks as they look at the thread and compare my interpretation to yours.

__________________
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmond Burke

"We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth.... For my part, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst; and to provide for it." - Patrick Henry

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Old Post 02-09-2005 08:18 PM
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webfusion
Critical Thinker

Registered: Nov 2004
Location:
Posts: 271

through the mill ---

Sean, You certainly are persistent, dude.

We all are thrilled to see your defense, and the point-by-point continuation of a non-discussion by a non-applicant who is trying (still) to prove, what, exactly?

Why are you taking this to the next level? Do you think that anyone here really gives a damn at this point where you stand or what you did or did not write? You have ZERO credibility, you know that right? It doesn't matter now if the famous 'phony' resignation letter was sent from Mars, also it doesn't matter anymore what was said, when it was said and by whom.

What only should matter to you now is the following and the following only:

Apply or leave.

What part of that don't you understand?
I find it incredible to the extreme that you're posting more and more and more, it's totally beyond comprehension what you are seeking to prove now!

For your benefit, in case you missed my post way back from the first page of the thread to you:
Here's the money -- Randi has it all stashed away in that vault !!!


Let's see your Application, OK? We need the entertainment, this week has been slow for woos.
Once the application is registered, you can take all the time you need in the forums to defend, explain, critique, deny, lie, review, examine, rebuke, whatever you want.

Until then - - shut up already!

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Old Post 02-09-2005 08:50 PM
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Suezoled
Illuminator

Registered: Sep 2003
Location: New York, upstate
Posts: 3803

quote:
Originally posted by kittynh
We're talking about treating people that apply for the million dollars with respect. If you reported my post, believe it or not there is a system for dealing with it. Even if we disagree with your report, you deserve the respect of us looking at it. You have to ability to complain, or to report the people reporting you. The right to report any post you feel needs reporting is an option for any forum member. Even tattletales.

Cleo, hey, don't I have a retainer with you?



Ah Kitty, luv, luv, it's one thing to respond to it; going through the motions helps keep the peace. But responding to it the way it has been dealt with...perhaps the complainer has a valid point, but fail to see even that in this thread.

I have been under the impression, so long as I have known this forum, that threads can and do take on a life of their own; tangents occur and maybe they take over, maybe they fade. The flexibility is part of makes JREF forums so appealing, to me anyway.

__________________
"We must always fear the wicked. But there is another kind of evil that we must fear the most, and that is the indifference of good men." -priest guy from Boondock Saints

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Old Post 02-09-2005 08:58 PM
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kittynh
The Hupsu Detective

Registered: Dec 2002
Location:
Posts: 6455

this is so going to be an after school special.

(grim music)

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"With God gone from his life, he felt reborn and revitalised by an entirely new kind of knowledge." Martin Brookes

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Old Post 02-09-2005 09:29 PM
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specious_reasons
Muse

Registered: Jul 2002
Location: Brookfield, IL
Posts: 797

quote:
Originally posted by PixyMisa
No.

But incessant questioning of the credibility of the Challenge fully merits a curmudgeonly brush-off.



We apparently have 2 versions of the story line here:

One in which Kramer or Randi forwards a letter from Goldman-Sachs.

One is which it wasn't.

If Sean had received that letter, maybe his next question to Randi was "incessant questioning", maybe. Opinions can differ on that, and maybe, maybe through experience, it's OK to write him off after that question.

If he hadn't received it, well, then, both Randi and Kramer's ire seems a bit premature.

Regardless, when is it appropriate for a JREF representative to say to a member of the public that they're "full of sh*t" or "full of baloney"? What someone might deserve is often drastically different than what one should actually do.

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DAVE!!!

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Old Post 02-09-2005 09:45 PM
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kittynh
The Hupsu Detective

Registered: Dec 2002
Location:
Posts: 6455

well, and I imagine you get some seriously mentally ill people applying. I know the people I do volunteer work with would possibly all have some good claims. God talks to them through the radio, things like that. To them, it IS real. Of course, I work on explaining things as well as I can, and I have to say the professionals that volunteer there are just the best.

I really wouldn't know about these applicants. Kitten mentioned someone that stopped by (and I don't think I can share the details) but I will say that this man was treated with respect, and if I remember a cup of coffee. I was touched by the kindness JREF showed. He could easily have been one of the people I work with. Only, perhaps they haven't written a book proving their delusions.

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Old Post 02-09-2005 11:08 PM
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jmercer
Muse

Registered: Jan 2005
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 580

What I find is the most ironically funny is that Sean isn't even an applicant. And he's not just refused to discuss his claim - he completely avoids the question of whether he even has a claim.

__________________
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmond Burke

"We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth.... For my part, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst; and to provide for it." - Patrick Henry

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Old Post 02-09-2005 11:25 PM
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Zep
Philosopher

Registered: Sep 2002
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 9303

I agree that the majority of actual applicants for the Challenge are likely to be either woefully ignorant, or somewhere between quietly disturbed and straight out barking mad. And in all cases I think they should be treated with at least respect they deserve, initially. We have seen a number of examples of these people here on this forum already.

But the problem that has become obvious here in this thread is that not all ENQUIRIES about the Challenge are necessarily from applicants. Nor is all correspondence about the Challenge about enquiries or applications - obviously some are straight out pests bent purely on getting a rise out of Kramer and/or Randi for their own nefarious purposes.

And herein lies the problem. The very people you really do NOT want spreading any bad word about JREF and co. is this last class. They will gleefully take back to their snickering mates all the muck on JREF they can possibly rake. So my question is: Why give them any muck to rake at all? Better to treat all correspondence with pleasant demeanour...like a good head waiter or hotel concierge. Then no-one can take offense. What doesn't fly well IN PUBLIC are the "apply or shove off" responses, no matter how provoked the receiver - does a good waiter say "eat or shove off" if asked about the menu?

Equally clearly Kramer can't deal endlessly with the malcontents and the obsessives and hope to stay sane (and I'd say he is close to the edge now! ). What he obviously needs instead are tested mechanisms that satisfactorily and permanently deflect these malcontents with aplomb, perhaps give the disturbed people a push in a helpful direction, and filter IN the genuine applicants. All without causing Kramer and Randi and others ongoing nuisance.

I believe the FAQ idea does have merit as a first line of enquiry. No doubt many questions will get answered there, and it may reduce the overall volume of emails Kramer gets anyway.

The second line should be a set of general purpose template responses (i.e. form letters) that spell out in clear detail the Rules and Operation of the JREF Challenge, including the above discussion of the Prize funding. Maybe even just one good one will do. All wording to be pleasant and neutral in stance, not offensive at all. A nice PDF format document, including the latest Goldman Sachs letter, should be easy to create. It might even be downloadable off this website, and could also contain an official application form for the Challenge!

The next line should be a process of filtering, which Kramer does already. Persistent pesterers get the repeated letter treatment - just keep responding with the PDF doc alone until they give up. They can't say they haven't been informed or have been insulted. The assorted weirdos might get a more personal treatment (and it may be worth JREF finding a genuine psychiatrist they can refer these people to for ongoing action - certainly JREF or this forum aren't the right places for this). This leaves the genuine applicants, of whom I expect very few will ever turn up at all.

Thus the majority of Kramer's time will be in sorting out the enquiries into: (1) pests and pesterers, interested folks who are not applicants, etc; (2) the mentally disturbed; and (3) the (scarce) genuine, reasonably sane applicants. Each can be dealt with easily, once they are sorted.

The summary is that JREF presents a professional and equitable face, provides fully disclosed details to all enquirers no matter who, and maintains the PR upper hand all the time. And Kramer gets to keep his marbles.

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Last edited by Zep on 02-10-2005 at 02:11 AM

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Old Post 02-10-2005 02:09 AM
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Gr8wight
Scholar

Registered: Jul 2004
Location: The Great White North
Posts: 67

quote:
Originally posted by Zep

And herein lies the problem. The very people you really do NOT want spreading any bad word about JREF and co. is this last class. They will gleefully take back to their snickering mates all the muck on JREF they can possibly rake. So my question is: Why give them any muck to rake at all? Better to treat all correspondence with pleasant demeanour...like a good head waiter or hotel concierge. Then no-one can take offense. What doesn't fly well IN PUBLIC are the "apply or shove off" responses, no matter how provoked the receiver - does a good waiter say "eat or shove off" if asked about the menu?

...edited for brevity...

The summary is that JREF presents a professional and equitable face, provides fully disclosed details to all enquirers no matter who, and maintains the PR upper hand all the time. And Kramer gets to keep his marbles.



I agree. This is the point I was trying to get at when I originally commented in the TC Albin thread. If the purpose of the JREF really is, as stated, "to promote critical thinking by reaching out to the public and media with reliable information about paranormal and supernatural ideas," then they must be vigilant about presenting the right face to the public and media.

Saying that all you are doing is brushing off a few loonies is disingenuous. As has been pointed out earlier in this thread, many of these loonies are simply looking for fodder for their Randi bashing websites. While we might give no credence to such a website, a member of the general public, who has no knowledge of the foundation or its reputation may form an opinion based on something he reads there. And, if Randi claims that he isn't bothered by that, then the mission statement I quoted above is questionable.

All I am saying is stop handing your attackers a knife.

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Old Post 02-10-2005 09:34 AM
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Luke T.
Philosopher

Registered: May 2003
Location:
Posts: 5725

Speaking in general terms, and not specifically to Sean's case, I would say that if someone is enquiring about the million dollars, they are demonstrating the very skepticism JREF is trying to promote. It should not be automatically assumed the enquirer is a whacko who has a paranormal claim just because the last 20 enquirers were.

I agree with everyone in this topic who said being rude to Sean was a mistake.

It looks to me like some very informative posts were made explaining how the financial aspect of the Challenge works in this topic. Some good links and explanations. Sounds like an excellent opportunity for someone to collate all the data, start a new topic putting it in easy-to-understand format, and getting it placed in the Forum Spotlight for easy reference for all future enquirers.

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Old Post 02-10-2005 10:27 AM
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CFLarsen
Penultimate Amazing

Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Denmark
Posts: 13896

Sean,

As I understand it, you have contacted Randi several times, and have continued conversation with Kramer. They seem to have answered your questions about the money, but I'm a little fuzzy re. your grievances with JREF.

Could you - for clarification purposes - list them? Just briefly.

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Old Post 02-10-2005 11:13 AM
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jmercer
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Registered: Jan 2005
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 580

quote:
Originally posted by Keri
I know you will not be posting further, but I cannot resist providing this information. Please click on http://12.39.246.46/650/650649443/650649443_200312_990.pdf JREF's 990 from 2003. (Their 2004 990 will be due to the IRS the 15th day of the 5th month after their 2004 fiscal year ends).

If you look at page 3 of the 990 you will see:
Line 59 column B (end of the year) Assets ($ they have) = $1,878,457.00
Line 66 column B (end of the year) Liabilities (debt they must pay) = $8,391.00
Line 74 column B (end of the year) Net Assets (money they have minus what they owe in debt) = $1,878,457.00




Actually, I don't know what more information could possibly be needed by anyone beyond Keri's post here. I'm not an accountant or CPA, but I just looked at the form and even discovered the nature of the bonds back in 2003.

So I too would like to hear from Sean what further information he needs about the money. (Since he's just stated in his last post that he still doubts the existence of it.) And while we're on the topic... I'd like to simplify my previous question to Sean:

Sean - do you have a paranormal claim?

(This is a simple "yes or no" answer, Sean. I am not interested in your opinion on the relevance of having a claim to this discussion.)

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Old Post 02-10-2005 11:46 AM
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kittynh
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Posts: 6455

ohhh, now this should get interesting!

Claus

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Old Post 02-10-2005 11:50 AM
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CFLarsen
Penultimate Amazing

Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Denmark
Posts: 13896

Clarify, clarify, clairfy...

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Old Post 02-10-2005 11:59 AM
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jmercer
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quote:
Originally posted by kittynh
ohhh, now this should get interesting!

Claus



Perhaps even more so. I did a search on "peebrain", and got a lot of hits... including this one from the "Parapsychological Practitioners Society":

http://ppsociety.com/w_profile.php?id=60

Is this you, Sean?

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Old Post 02-10-2005 12:07 PM
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specious_reasons
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Location: Brookfield, IL
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quote:
Originally posted by jmercer
Perhaps even more so. I did a search on "peebrain", and got a lot of hits... including this one from the "Parapsychological Practitioners Society":

http://ppsociety.com/w_profile.php?id=60

Is this you, Sean?



Why don't you just look at peebrain's profile on this forum?

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Old Post 02-10-2005 12:34 PM
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jmercer
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quote:
Originally posted by specious_reasons
Why don't you just look at peebrain's profile on this forum?


What makes you think I didn't?

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Old Post 02-10-2005 12:37 PM
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peebrain
New Member

Registered: Jul 2004
Location:
Posts: 12

quote:
Originally posted by CFLarsen
Sean,

As I understand it, you have contacted Randi several times, and have continued conversation with Kramer. They seem to have answered your questions about the money, but I'm a little fuzzy re. your grievances with JREF.

Could you - for clarification purposes - list them? Just briefly.



I have not had contact with Kramer or Randi since my last email on February 4th (unless you count this thread as contact with Kramer... but Kramer hasn't responded to anything I've written on this thread). The last contact I had from Kramer was Feb 4th, and the last contact I had from Randi was Jan 31st. These dates are extracted from this log: http://s91683501.onlinehome.us/randi.html

My main grievance is their hypocritical nature, of preaching that they search for truth, but in practice they search for nothing. They already assume they have found truth, and now project this self-righteous truth on others. This is not healthy skepticism. On top of that, Kramer (and possibly Randi) seems to have an "end justifies the means" attitude. The edits Kramer made in the emails weren't a big deal, but obviously Kramer thought they were a big deal (or he wouldn't have edited them). He purposly edited the content - which is in direct conflict with presenting the truth.

And now this false email has sprung up, which is very suspiscious. I emailed Kramer from a private account, that NO ONE knows about. I X'd out my email in the public logs. For someone to fake the email, it would require them to know my email address - and this information isn't available to ANYONE except myself, Kramer, and Randi. I haven't used that particular email account for anything else.

I also have other grievances, but this is my main one, at this point.

As for my paranormal claim - fine, I give in, YES I have a few claims actually, and I have a few friends who have claims too. I do not plan on applying for the Challenge yet, although I might in the future once I have enough resources. You may begin the name calling, secret chuckling, pseudo-skepticism, and onslaught of attacks on my credibility. Again, as I've tried to stress, my questions are legitimate questions FOR JREF. We are not investigating ME, we are investigating THEM. Unfortunately, I believe giving up this piece of information will flip the skeptic switch in everyone's head on this forum (which is normal and logical), and the focus will shift from investigating JREF, to investigating my claims.

At this point, I do not want to engage in skeptics - I have better things to do than sit around and convince them. (Even though I have been persistant in this thread, I do have a life - my persistance exists because of the magnitude of the Challenge... I could honestly care less what the average skeptic thinks about me).

And for everyone who now thinks "Well, if he has something paranormal, he should apply and take the million", keep in mind that this thread is evidence that it isn't that simple. Randi wants everyone to think it's that simple, but when the gears start to get put in motion, and some logical preliminary questions are asked, it turns into this mess... "simple" wouldn't be the adjective I would use.

I will try to stop replying to this thread unless I notice something grossly inaccurate (like the false email). I believe I have presented my case, and expressed myself accurately up until this point. Anything else I have to say would be mostly redundant. Thanks for taking the time to see my perspective, and I'm sorry this has turned into such an ordeal.

~Sean

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Old Post 02-10-2005 12:46 PM
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CFLarsen
Penultimate Amazing

Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Denmark
Posts: 13896

quote:
Originally posted by peebrain
My main grievance is their hypocritical nature, of preaching that they search for truth, but in practice they search for nothing. They already assume they have found truth, and now project this self-righteous truth on others. This is not healthy skepticism.


This is patently wrong. Randi has many times expressed his willingness - eagerness, even - to give up the money, if only he could see a genuine paranormal phenomenon.

quote:
Originally posted by peebrain
On top of that, Kramer (and possibly Randi) seems to have an "end justifies the means" attitude. The edits Kramer made in the emails weren't a big deal, but obviously Kramer thought they were a big deal (or he wouldn't have edited them). He purposly edited the content - which is in direct conflict with presenting the truth.


We have your word against Kramer's.

quote:
Originally posted by peebrain
And now this false email has sprung up, which is very suspiscious. I emailed Kramer from a private account, that NO ONE knows about. I X'd out my email in the public logs. For someone to fake the email, it would require them to know my email address - and this information isn't available to ANYONE except myself, Kramer, and Randi. I haven't used that particular email account for anything else.


We only have your word that the account was private.

quote:
Originally posted by peebrain
As for my paranormal claim - fine, I give in, YES I have a few claims actually, and I have a few friends who have claims too.


So, you did not play with open cards. This does not help you one little bit.

quote:
Originally posted by peebrain
I do not plan on applying for the Challenge yet, although I might in the future once I have enough resources. You may begin the name calling, secret chuckling, pseudo-skepticism, and onslaught of attacks on my credibility. Again, as I've tried to stress, my questions are legitimate questions FOR JREF. We are not investigating ME, we are investigating THEM. Unfortunately, I believe giving up this piece of information will flip the skeptic switch in everyone's head on this forum (which is normal and logical), and the focus will shift from investigating JREF, to investigating my claims.


You don't need to have more resources. Since you are claiming something paranormal, all you need to do is apply. It's that simple.

quote:
Originally posted by peebrain
At this point, I do not want to engage in skeptics - I have better things to do than sit around and convince them. (Even though I have been persistant in this thread, I do have a life - my persistance exists because of the magnitude of the Challenge... I could honestly care less what the average skeptic thinks about me).


To convince us, all you need to do is prove that your claim of paranormal powers are real. It's that simple.

quote:
Originally posted by peebrain
And for everyone who now thinks "Well, if he has something paranormal, he should apply and take the million", keep in mind that this thread is evidence that it isn't that simple. Randi wants everyone to think it's that simple, but when the gears start to get put in motion, and some logical preliminary questions are asked, it turns into this mess... "simple" wouldn't be the adjective I would use.


Excuse me, but judging from your own claims on your own site, it is very simple. You do paranormal stuff all the time, you meet people who do paranormal stuff all the time.

quote:
Originally posted by peebrain
I will try to stop replying to this thread unless I notice something grossly inaccurate (like the false email). I believe I have presented my case, and expressed myself accurately up until this point. Anything else I have to say would be mostly redundant. Thanks for taking the time to see my perspective, and I'm sorry this has turned into such an ordeal.


The reason why this has turned into such an "ordeal" is solely because you do not play with open cards.

What it comes down to is this: The money is there. You have a paranormal claim.

The question is: Why don't you just apply?

I think the answer is very simple.

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Old Post 02-10-2005 01:00 PM
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Suezoled
Illuminator

Registered: Sep 2003
Location: New York, upstate
Posts: 3803

quote:
Originally posted by peebrain
(snipped)
This is not healthy skepticism. On top of that, Kramer (and possibly Randi) seems to have an "end justifies the means" attitude. The edits Kramer made in the emails weren't a big deal, but obviously Kramer thought they were a big deal (or he wouldn't have edited them). He purposly edited the content - which is in direct conflict with presenting the truth.

(snipped)

~Sean




Hm... is he talking about the ones the admins chose to edit?

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Old Post 02-10-2005 01:04 PM
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jmercer
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Registered: Jan 2005
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 580

For those of you who are interested in visiting what appears to be Sean's site (based on announcements on some of the pages by peebrain as administrator):

http://www.psipog.net/welcome.php

I suggest you take a good look at the Help page:

http://www.psipog.net/help.php

Especially the item titled: "Can I see a demonstration of your skills?"



(Edited to remove wrong title)

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Last edited by jmercer on 02-10-2005 at 01:12 PM

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Old Post 02-10-2005 01:10 PM
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jmercer
Muse

Registered: Jan 2005
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 580

quote:
Originally posted by Suezoled
Hm... is he talking about the ones the admins chose to edit?


I think he's referring to the one that Kramer last posted, where it appears that Sean backed way off and asked for all of his posts to be deleted from the forum. Now he's denying he wrote that email, and is insinuating that it's a forgery. By parties unnamed, but it seems to me he's pointing his finger at Kramer or Randi... like they need to do something like that to defend themselves!

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Old Post 02-10-2005 01:24 PM
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KRAMER
challenge facilitator

Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Broward County, FL.
Posts: 531

Funny...

quote:
Originally posted by Luke T.
Speaking in general terms, and not specifically to Sean's case, I would say that if someone is enquiring about the million dollars, they are demonstrating the very skepticism JREF is trying to promote.


Agreed, unconditionally.

And we instantly oblige their requests for supporting data that confirms the existence of the funds by mailing them the Goldman Sachs confirmation letter. When the inquirer continues on into belligerence, however, well, that's not skepticism anymore. It's something else entirely. Call it what you like. I have my own term for it, but I'm trying not to be rude from now on, so I'll refrain from stating it.

The Goldman Sachs confirmation letter is all any reasonable person should require in order to confidently submit a Challenge application. I've reviewed this question extensively as a direct result of this thread, and I am quite sure that Randi is right; there is no need to spoonfeed anyone on clarifying what is clear and concise in the Challenge rules. If an inquirer cannot understand them, they should certainly ask for help, but not from the JREF. We've done our job in this regard by putting the effort we did into the compostion of the Challenge application and rules, and I assure you it was not composed overnight, or scribbled on the back of a drink coaster during Happy Hour at Flannigan's.

There's something that's really been nagging at me since this debate became heated. I'd like to share it now with you all...

It's curious to me how some of us here share such dissimilar definitions for the word Skepticism. Isn't Skepticism supposed to be conducted within the bounds of REASON? Isn't that part of the very definition of the word? I mean, a rose is a rose is a rose, right? How much inquiry is really needed to confirm that?

As an example...if I'm skeptical that an orange is really an orange, shouldn't it be sufficient to peel the skin and take a bite?

Isn't sending it to the lab for molecular analysis going just a tad too far? And wouldn't that be a clear sign to any observer that something is definitely amiss in how I manifest my skepticism?
Conversely, could it not also possibly be a sign that I'm not really trying to find out if it's really an orange? Wouldn't it make one wonder what I was really up to? And wouldn't such a notion be the most solid proof of a truly skeptical mind?

Whoever said here that Peebrain should be "...applauded for his skepticism" has, in my opinion, gone way off the deep end. Sorry.

quote:
Originally posted by Luke T.
It should not be automatically assumed the enquirer is a whacko who has a paranormal claim just because the last 20 enquirers were.


It's NOT automatically assumed. NOTHING is automatically assumed. Each inquirer is assessed via careful examination of his/her continuing correspondence. I arrive at a certain conclusion eventually, though, when accusations about the validity of the Challenge continue past the point I think most people would consider reasonable.

My correspondences always begin with total courtesy. I was not prepared to offer this courtesy off-the-bat to Peebrain, however, because he had already significantly harrassed Randi, so my job wasn't so much to begin anew with him. My job, at that point, was to attempt to decipher whether or not his inquiries were a precursor to him making a paranormal claim and the subsequent submission of a Challenge application, and if so, to encourage him to do so.

I did that to the best of my ability at the time, but I recognize my failings in this instance and will endeavor from this point forward to maintain a persona more consistent with the integrity of what everyone here seems to agree is what is required in representing both the JREF and the skeptical community as a whole.

That said, I think that a great many forum members here did their very best to treat him as they felt he should be treated, and as they felt JREF neglected to treat him, but should have, offering him the data that he - for some reason - felt he didn't receive from the JREF. That's fine, but I promise you all that I will, from now on, do my very best to make future such efforts by forum members wholly unneccesary.

Despite that courtesy and effort, however, he STILL has not offered insight into his paranormal claim, and has been most suspiciously secretive about the entire matter. Why? I wonder.

A million bucks says he just doesn't have a paranormal claim, and thusly, if I am right, he deserves not one millisecond more of our attention.

As promised, I'll continue to be polite, or, at the appropriate time, I'll simply stop responding.

quote:
Originally posted by Luke T.
I agree with everyone in this topic who said being rude to Sean was a mistake.


Being rude to Sean WAS a mistake. I'm not sure how much longer I can keep on admitting to that.

I should have simply said "APPLY OR GO AWAY" until I became convinced that it was useless to continue doing so, and then I ought to have just ignored his subsequent emails.

Or is "APPLY OR GO AWAY" rude, too? I predict you'll say that it was.

But, I don't think so. Such a conviction on my part, however, does not preclude me from making protocol changes that need to be made, for whatever reasons. I'm not proud.

Since I feel strongly that this has gone on long enough, how about this? From this point forward, I will say nothing in response to similar "inquiries" (regardless of what my experience tells me about their true nature) except the following:

Please feel free to submit a duly executed JREF Paranormal Challenge application at any time, should you feel that you have a paranormal claim that you can successfully demonstrate."

I will respond to nagging, unreasonable inquiries with this single sentence 3 or 4 times, and then, if the same questions persist persist, I will simply stop responding.

Does this sound fair, and, more importantly, POLITE?

This is not to say that Randi himself won't continue to say "APPLY OR GO AWAY", of course. He will say what he feels without regard for any debate that swirls around my desk, and far be it from me to suggest to him that he respond otherwise.

Oh and by the way, if Peebrain states that he didn't receive the Goldman Sachs letter, well, I've heard that before, too.

Regardless...if he wants us to send him another one, we will do so once again, immediately upon request, and we do not demand that he first tell us if he has a paranormal claim or not. We don't care anymore. We'd also be happy to oblige his request by faxing it to him, if he so desires.

Sure. Why not. I'll bend over backwards 6 times until Sunday for Peebrain. Yeah. Heck. Why don't I just stop all the work I'm doing for applicants, indefinitely, and deal fulltime with Peebrain and his oh-so-reasonable requests and all the other non-applicants who, for whatever motive, are just wasting my time?

Hey, I never said I wouldn't personally and professionally resent them? I'm just promising to no longer express it to them in my correspondences. It's part of being professional, and I regret having lost sight of that on those rare occasions, and having stirring such controversy as a result.

I can alter the way I behave, but I can hardly alter the way I think when it comes to this kind of crap, and I don't feel that anyone should expect me to, or require me to. We're all freethinkers here. Right?

Well, most of us are.

I don't need to drink the whole glass of milk to know that it's sour.

A sip will do just fine.

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CFLarsen
Penultimate Amazing

Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Denmark
Posts: 13896

Re: Funny...

quote:
Originally posted by KRAMER
The Goldman Sachs confirmation letter is all any reasonable person should require in order to confidently submit a Challenge application.


And that's the sniff test.

All people have to do is contact Goldman Sachs and ask if the confirmation letter is real.

If it is, the money is there. If it is not, then JREF is history, shamed, shown to be liars, fakes and crooks.

It's such a simple thing to do: Just contact GoldmanSachs and verify.

Yet, people don't. I think the reason is very simple.

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Old Post 02-10-2005 02:06 PM
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jmercer
Muse

Registered: Jan 2005
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Posts: 580

Re: Funny...

quote:
Originally posted by KRAMER

I don't need to drink the whole glass of milk to know that it's sour.

A sip will do just fine.



Can a Kramer post be nominated in the language thread? Because this quote is a keeper.

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KRAMER
challenge facilitator

Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Broward County, FL.
Posts: 531

quote:
Originally posted by peebrain
...and the focus will shift from investigating JREF, to investigating my claims.


Well, at least Peebrain admits now that this WAS all about "investigating JREF".

Someone needs to tell him that the JREF One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge IS about investigating his claim. He doesn't believe anything I say, so I'm not going to be the one to tell him.

Unreal.

Absolutely unreal.

Oh, and I need to make a confession here:

I DID tell him he was "full of sh*t", and I DID regret it the moment after I sent it, and I WAS personally embarrassed for having written it in the first place, and I DID edit that out from the forum posting, and I AM ashamed to admit it, although I've been wanting to do so from the start.

And if that makes my entire ouvre suspect from this point onward, I deserve it, and so be it. The truth is far more important than my own reputation. If I've lost any respect for having done so, I have no one but myself to blame. It was a big mistake and there is no forgiving it. I apologize to Sean here and now for all to see, on behalf of myself, The JREF, and the skeptical community we hope to represent.

And I did NOT edit anything else out, EVER, from ANY emails I have posted here, not EVER, and I DID send him the Goldman Sachs letter, and I DID receive that email from him that he says was sent "by someone else".

And you know what I think should be the end to all this?

The fact that Peebrain (and each and every one of his "friends" who also have claims) is still free to apply. He has a claim. We're very interested to hear what it is, and anxious to begin protocol negotiations asap. With any luck, it will actually qualify for the Challenge.

Wow. We're actually getting somewhere. Peebrain says he has a paranormal claim. Now if we can only get him to divulge it.

Send it to my attention, Peebrain. No rush. Take your time.

We're not going anywhere. You can be sure of that.

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KRAMER,
JREF Paranormal Claims Dept.

Last edited by KRAMER on 02-10-2005 at 02:17 PM

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AmateurScientist
JREF Kid

Registered: Dec 2001
Location:
Posts: 1676

Re: Funny...

quote:
Originally posted by KRAMER
(AS: edited for brevity and to highlight pertinent points)
As promised, I'll continue to be polite, or, at the appropriate time, I'll simply stop responding.

Being rude to Sean WAS a mistake. I'm not sure how much longer I can keep on admitting to that.

Since I feel strongly that this has gone on long enough, how about this? From this point forward, I will say nothing in response to similar "inquiries" (regardless of what my experience tells me about their true nature) except the following:

Please feel free to submit a duly executed JREF Paranormal Challenge application at any time, should you feel that you have a paranormal claim that you can successfully demonstrate."

I will respond to nagging, unreasonable inquiries with this single sentence 3 or 4 times, and then, if the same questions persist persist, I will simply stop responding.

Does this sound fair, and, more importantly, POLITE?




Sounds fair and polite to me, KRAMER.

It takes a big man sometimes to admit his mistakes publicly. That's very cool of you to do so here. It's also nice to see that you are heeding our gentle advice about being more polite, even to kooks.

Thanks.

AS

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KRAMER
challenge facilitator

Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Broward County, FL.
Posts: 531

Re: Re: Funny...

quote:
Originally posted by CFLarsen
All people have to do is contact Goldman Sachs and ask if the confirmation letter is real. If it is, the money is there. If it is not, then JREF is history, shamed, shown to be liars, fakes and crooks.


And then, we'd all go to jail. It's called FRAUD.

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KRAMER,
JREF Paranormal Claims Dept.

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CFLarsen
Penultimate Amazing

Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Denmark
Posts: 13896

Re: Re: Re: Funny...

quote:
Originally posted by KRAMER
And then, we'd all go to jail. It's called FRAUD.


Exactly.

Anyone want to nail JREF? If they are right about the money not being there, all they got to do is pick up the phone.

It's far simpler than to write lengthy emails and posts on various message boards. But they don't.

"Tomme tønder buldrer mest".
"Empty barrels make the most noise".
Danish proverb.

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