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Evidence that OBEs are not hallucination

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Evidence that OBEs are not hallucination on Tue May 02, 2006 12:03 pm

Peebrain

Site Admin
Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 716

DanielH was saying that OBEs were hallucination, so I'm creating this thread to talk about it, along with present the evidence I've come across over the years that it isn't a hallucination.

1. Personal experience! This one experience is what ultimately convinced me: http://www.psipog.net/blog/2005/11/awesome-obe.html

The next couple pieces of evidence all come from Journeys Out of the Body by Robert Monroe.

2. Page 46-48: In this experience, Monroe left his body with the intention of visiting his sick friend, Dr. Bradshaw. He knew Bradshaw was sick and in bed, and Monroe's idea was to visit him, and take notice of things in the room. He had never been in that room, so he thought this was a good way to confirm his experience was real. Upon going to Bradshaw's house, he saw Bradshaw and Bradshaw's wife outside. Monroe was confused because he knew Bradshaw was ill, and suppose to be in bed. He noted what they were wearing, and noted what they were doing. All of this information he later confirmed via a phone call, that he plainly asked his questions so that Bradshaw would give honest straight forward answers. Monroe writes:

"In this visit to Dr. Bradshaw and his wife, the time of the visit coincides with the physical event. The autosuggestion hallucination factor is negative. I expected to find Dr. Bradshaw in bed in the house, but did not do so and was puzzled by the inconsistency. Identical reports with conditions of actual events:

(1) Location of Dr. Bradshaw and his wife.
(2) Position of the two relative to each other.
(3) The actions of the two.
(4) Wearing apparel of the two.

Possibility of unconscious preknowledge through earlier observation of the above:

(1) Negative, had no information of their change in plans or time of habits of post office visits.
(2) Indeterminate, consciously at least unaware of who walks first.
(3) Negative, would have no preknowledge of their walking across to the garage in such a fasion.
(4) Indeterminate, may have observed both in similar dress, but expected to find only one (Dr. Bradshaw), in bedclothes."

3. Page 48-51: This experience is more impressive than the previous. In this one, Monroe left his body. He sees a boy throwing a baseball up in the air and catching it, then sees a man trying to put an awkward-looking device in the back seat of a car, then slamming the door. After a shift, he witnessed people sitting around a table, with dishes covering it. One person was dealing what looked like large white playing cards around to the others at the table. After the OBE ended, Monroe went about his day like normal, and met his friends Mr. and Mrs. Agnew Bahnson. Monroe had a gut feeling that he OBEd to them earlier, so he asked them about the three experiences. Their child had really been tossing a baseball around while walking to school that morning. At the same time, Mr. Bahnson was loading his car wth a Van DeGraff generator. His wife was also, for the first time in two years, brought in the morning mail to the breakfast table and had passed out the letters to them as she sorted the mail. Quoted from the book:

"In this morning visit to Mr. Bahnson and his family, the time of visit coincides with actual events. Autosuggestion hallucination, negative; no conscious intent of visit, although unconscious motivation possible. Identical reports with conditions of actual events:

(1) Son walking down the street tossing ball in air.
(2) Mr. Bahnson at car.
(3) Mr. Bahnson's action at car.
(4) Device he had at car.
(5) Action of Mrs. Bahnson at table, the dealing of "cards".
(6) Card size and white color.
(7) Dishes on table.

Possibility of unconscious preknowledge through earlier observation of the above:

(1) Negative, unaware of son's interest in baseball, and not conscious of his basic activities.
(2) Negative, had no knowledge of Mr. Bahnson's actions in morning around car, and reported action was not part of his daily routine.
(3) Negative, as indicated such actions were not routine, i.e., loading of car, thus could not be part of preobserved habit patterns of Mr. Bahnson.
(4) Indeterminate, possible that device had been observed previously but not in location indicated.
(5) Negative, no part of preobservation memory, as Mrs. Bahnson did not make habit of such action; sorting mail at table was unusual event.
(6) Negative, for reasons just given, coupled with no such habits in own life pattern of sorting mail at table, plus misinterpretation of action itself.
(7) Indeterminate, preobservation could have been applied here in relation to the Bahnson family, as writer had taken breakfast there several times."

4. This post is long enough, so I'll just make quick notes of the rest of the section in this book, where Monroe goes over more experiences. His next example is when he visits a seance while OBE, and witnesses some things, which he later confirms physically happened. The next one Monroe talks about pinching someone while OBE, and later confirming the person felt the pinch (and left a bruise), along with confirming what that person was doing at the time he pinched her. I think there are other examples in the rest of the book, but I don't feel like searching them out right now. This post will do for now, as it demonstrates my point clearly. Specifically, I think it's awesome how strictly Monroe analyzes his own experiences.

~Sean

Posted on Tue May 02, 2006 12:14 pm

DanielH

Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 479

See, that stuff is nice and all... but when and where was all of this studied and confirmed? You can post as many of his and other people's experiences as you want, but they don't prove anything.

Somethings (your experience for example) could just have been a dream and your sub-c reminding you of where the pic dropped. You might have been sleeping walking, not paying attention, whatever... that the pic was there doesn't count as proof because it could just have been a memory you didn't notice before.

As for the Monroe thing... what scientific organizations studied his experiences? I've met many people online who claim to do things and have other people back them up. It happens all the time. Does that mean they're all accurate? Nope.

Experiments, names, organizations, schools, etc. Those are the kinds of things I want. OBEs that have been studied by groups of people... not just the guy who claims to have had them. Please tell me you're setting me up and have that kind of information... otherwise this is all pointless.

Quote:

I had an OBE last week... I went over to my school's library to check to see if they have an item I called in for. It was already a few weeks late and everyone assumed it was lost. When I got there I noticed people seemed a bit hazy, but I could still see them. I walked over to the aisle and I saw that they had the item I wanted. I called up and confirmed. This cannot be faked and it's obvious proof that OBEs _can_ see the outside world.

You see how easy it is for anyone to make something up? I'm not goig to believe something that someone says just beacuse they have a big name or because they're a celebrity. I'd like to see it backed up and verified by a few schools.... or some news sources... or whatever like that.

Posted on Tue May 02, 2006 12:35 pm

Peebrain

Site Admin
Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 716

In the same book, there is an epilogue written by Stuart W. Twemlow, M.D., Psychiatrist, Chief of Research Service, Topeka V.A. Hospital, Faculty, Menninger School of Psychiatry. The epilogue is too long to type here (you know, you could just BUY the book for $10, and read the entire thing for yourself). However, in the epilogue, Twemlow writes on page 278-279:

"As part of a break from the intensive psychological investigation we conducted a brief experiment in the psycho-physiological laboratory of the hospital, with a psychologist, Dr. Fowler Jones of the Kansas University Medical Center, as co-observer. We simply asked Monroe to put himself into the state of mind he defined as out-of-the-body. We had him hooked up to a polygraph and took some brain wave tracings. We observed him through a one-way mirror over a thirty-minute time period. Most striking was his slow rate of breathing and his intensive depth of relaxation. His breathing was shallow and he had periods in which he would not breathe at all, and then would take a few gulping breaths. At about the same time as a technician entered the room to tell us that the brain wave tracings were changing, Dr. Jones and I simultaneously had the impression of a heat-wave-like distortion of Monroe's upper body while the lower part of his body was clearly in focus to us. This distortion lasted until approximately two minutes before the termination of the experiment."

Also, if you don't like Monroe, you can also research Miss Z: http://www.psywww.com/asc/obe/missz.html

A Psychophysiological Study of Out-of-the-Body Experiences in a Selected Subject by Charles T. Tart

Originally published in the Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research, 1968, vol. 62, no. 1, pp. 3-27.

In Tart's experiment, Miss Z correctly read a 5 digit number while in an out of body state.

~Sean

Posted on Tue May 02, 2006 12:45 pm

DanielH

Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 479

$10 is a lot to me. I'll look for his book in a library when I go back today.

I actually live pretty close to KU/Topeka. I'll try to make an appointment under the guise of a student to get some office hours in... or I'll at least send them some e-mails or something.

As for the Miss Z thing... that's a much better lead to go on. It all still tends to sound like it could just RVing even if it true though. We'll see in a few days when I read some more about this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Tart

- Too bad he does Aikido. Otherwise he'd seem like an almost stand up guy.

Posted on Thu May 04, 2006 2:01 pm

Xiouslaidyn

Joined: 23 Feb 2006
Posts: 194

OBEs are real, in my opinion. I don't need to prove it to anyone.

Posted on Thu May 04, 2006 6:35 pm

Zemeon

Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 269

I agree. I have had them before, and don't even want to prove it to anyone. It is'nt that big a deal anyhow.

Posted on Fri May 05, 2006 12:16 am

The_Musician

Joined: 01 Mar 2006
Posts: 323

has anyone stopped to think about the sub-concious factor in obes? Like mabye a deep seeded sub-concious thought about how a certain situation will go. Robert bruce (another obe experience author) said something about before even attempting an obe, you have to sort out what you expect out of one. Why is this? Why would you put so much effort into what you think an obe might be like? Shouldnt you just beable to obe and have serveral even close to all experiences be somewhat identical?

Like peebrains experience for instance. He looked under his bed and saw some black object. In reality it was a black guitar pic with a logo in the middle. He saw that first glance and thought washer because of what he sub-conciously thought at first glance. He then preceaded to grab for white washers that, in reality didnt even exsist in the first place. Could anyone make sense of this?

Posted on Wed May 10, 2006 11:40 pm

Mad_Hatter

Joined: 19 Feb 2006
Posts: 393

I'd say that there is a large volume of information to support OBE's. That implies to me that there's something to it. The next step I'd think would be personal experiance. Everybody who's had one seems to be fairly certain of their validity. Just out of curiosity, have you ever had one, DanielH? Also, Monroe did found an institute, maybe they have records of OBE's. But as far as hard evidence, there is such a distinct lack of lab tests, so I could see why you are skeptical. Always good to think twice before accepting something.

Also, what's wrong with Aikido?

Posted on Sat Jul 01, 2006 11:42 pm

DanielH

Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 479

1) Your personal experience isn't evidence. You can't present it as such. Not even my feelings of OBEs are evidence for OBEs being real.

2) More personal experience.

3) More personal experience.

4) More personal experience.

Is that all the evidence people have for the reality of OBEs?

Posted on Sun Jul 02, 2006 12:38 am

SamuelDKelso

Joined: 30 Jun 2006
Posts: 37

www.jonasridgeway.com

that was the site that got me into psionics and OBE's and reading from that site theres no doubt in my mind that this guy and many others (except of course me Sad

im still workin on basics) can get out of there body and have some fun with their life. i dont think the guitar pick is proof of an OBE but if you believe you have OBE's then I do to...after all, you are the administrator an such...neways for any skeptics take a look at that site and please try to have an open mind about everything...i mean hey, you really don know everything, no matter what you think: your not god and you dont create the outcome of any experiments or pshicic (or however you spell it) skills. god could wake up one day and decide to make the sky pink...are you gunna stop him?...so i think I got my point across: anything is possible and i'd advise you not to doubt it

Posted on Sun Jul 02, 2006 7:04 am

infected

Joined: 28 Jun 2006
Posts: 104

DanielH wrote:

What other evidence does one need than experiencing it first hand? And every scientific fact was a personal experience at first, then it evolved so stuff about it could be measured and explained. But one thing is certain: more times you have an OBE (or perform PK or TP or anything like that), more will you believe in it. There's no real evidence that OBEs exist, becaue no one ever took a camera on his journey, but there are lots of experiences on the subject from various sources. I know this doesen't answer your question very good, but that's just the way it is.

OBEs have not been scientifically proven or studied well enough so that we can make a claim of any "evidence". For now, there are only theories.

peace ?

Posted on Sun Jul 02, 2006 3:41 pm

DanielH

Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 479

I've had an OBE or two myself. I don't think that's proof of me leaving my body. Why would I think it's proof of me leaving my body? We already know what part of the brain gives you that feeling... if we find that something actually leaves I'll reconsider it.

Posted on Sun Jul 02, 2006 5:07 pm

pepsiboy

Joined: 25 Jun 2006
Posts: 562

DanielH wrote:

ectoplasm

Posted on Mon Jul 03, 2006 3:28 am

sparkz

Joined: 02 Feb 2006
Posts: 664

Personally, i Can't say for sure that OBEs are real. I've experienced the vibrations, but that doesn't mean that i should now accept anything and everything about OBEs. I know that there's a possability thta OBEs exist. but i only ever trust what i see with my own eyes.

Posted on Sun Jul 09, 2006 7:19 am

larryleisure

Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 44

DanielH wrote:

That is exactly my point and what I was saying in that other thread.
And so I believe that if you manage to prove this somehow, that would be a giant step for humanity (yes you've heard that sentence before :p ). A proof of a mind/soul/... distinct from the physical body would definitely change a lot of people's perception of the World we're living in, of their lives and what we're actually doing here (and don't tell me that's something you've never asked yourself). That could also perhaps change ideas and beliefs about religions (which to me wouldn't be a bad thing, but that's just my thought).
So, it's all good and nice to see those experiment reports, but honestly I've read so many things on the net the last years (and not only on OBE's) that it's just too easy to say anything without backing it up. And the worst is that so many people believe anything blindly, that's what dangerous, because it leads to a lot of misconceptions and then everyone starts to think differentely, whilst in the end we're all living on the same planet, we've been issued from the same thing and probably we'll end up in the same place.
So what? I don't know, why not try to reinitiate a more contemporary way of testing and proving OBE exists?? The way things have been tested still sound pretty valid to me (making someone read numbers in another room, ....), but I'd like to see more of the experiment and not just the experiment reports under the form of a 5 pages text that I just could have written myself.
Bring it on TV? Bring on a scientist community? This must be done! I'm positive, this is important.

BTW, glad this continues and that another thread opened. Glad to see some people wants to put some effort in making this more tangible. Smile

cheers All Wink

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