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Reducing and Understanding Fluff

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Reducing and Understanding Fluff on Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:28 pm

Peebrain

Site Admin
Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 716

Fluff is a constant battle we fight. I've had a few comments directed towards me lately about how we should do something to improve the quality of posts at PsiPog. So I thought I'd open it up for discussion.

First, I think we need to understand fluff. Fluff is not some enemy, and it's not something we need to attack. If someone is fluffy, that doesn't mean that person IS fluffy - it means that person is behaving in fluffy ways. I know that seems like splitting hairs, but the difference is important. How many people here used to act fluffy in the past? A lot of us. But we grew and matured. So a person isn't inherently fluffy... they just have some fluffy characteristics, and can definitly improve.

We shouldn't push people with fluffy characteristics away. Again - how many people reading this started off as pefect anyways? However, we do need to find more effective ways of educating people, and motivating them to behave less fluffy.

We all need to look at ourselves, and inspect our own past. What motivated me personally to mature and speak clearly, and realistically on the internet? For me, the answer is I had some role models that spoke clearly and realistically, and it gave me something to aim for. Sure, I knew I said stupid things here and there, but I knew if I stayed around long enough, I would figure out how to behave in a more positive manor.

If you were fluffy in the past, what actions took place that changed that for you? These actions are what we need to encourage other fluffy people to experience, if we want to reduce fluff.

As I said, what really motivated me was having good role models. So my first suggestion to reduce fluff is to make ourselves better role models. Lead by example.

Another immediate action we can take to reduce fluff is to have a two-week (or longer/short) waiting period before someone can post. This time restriction has worked great for the chat room. It forces people who want to join and blurt out their question to wait. Since they are waiting, they either lose interest in psionics, or actually go find their common question in the articles or Q&A.

A lot of times we just want to have the answer to our question immediately. I know I've joined forums in the past, just to blurt out an obvious question. I would join a few of them, bookmark my questions, and then check back to see where it got answered. Having a two-week waiting period destroys this habit.

I think it's important not to divide people over this. Don't think of it in terms of "Them vs. Us!!!" We're all in this together, and we all have our own fluffy moments. We all have our intelligent moments too.

If anyone has any ideas, I'd love to hear them. If you come up with a simple idea, please be aware that there's a good chance we've tried it in the past. We've tried lots of things Razz

. But I'm willing to re-discuss some things if people have input.

~Sean

Posted on Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:52 pm

DanielH

Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 479

I'm glad to see this post considering I was one of the ones that PMed you about this. Here are a few words and some of my ideas.

I think that we need to be more open and friendly with the posters. Yes, I know people think I'm an asshole, but I'm not. I try to be nice the majority of the time. Being nice is not enough though. We should help others learn more about psionics and try to help them out with their problems. We are human... let us have some compassion for each other.

Some of my ideas include punishing people who consistently post stupid messages. We know who these people are. We constantly lock their posts, send them warnings, and so on. Not only are they bringing the quality of the forum down, but they are wasting valuable resources.

How exactly do we punish people on the internet? Well, this is a forum. We already have post limits... just limit them more. If someone posts stupid message after stupid message then limit them to one or two an hour. If it's really bad limit them to one or two a day.

Another way is to have their messages sent to a pool where the mods can read them and filter out the trash. Yes, this is extreme and will prove to be a hard task, but we can limit this to the extreme cases.

Another thing we need to do is fix this language problem we seem to be having. I know that my English is not even near perfect, but I try. I spell words out, I try to use proper grammar and punctuation, and I use spell check programs most of the time. Honestly, is that so hard?

We shouldn't just punish our posters though. People who post lots of intelligent messages should be given more posts per hour or day as a prize. There are plenty of other nice things that can be done for them.

Another little idea I had and discussed with a few people was about having more intelligent discussions. A weekly or biweekly book discussion based on an assigned book. Monroe or skeptic books for example. Or perhaps a little "teaching"/discussion session every week or two. It doesn't have to be a huge thing... just a time when the older members can help out the newer ones with their questions in the chat room.

Posted on Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:08 pm

stony1205

Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 170

I agree with the fact that fluffy actions dont necessarily mean fluffy people.

When I first started chatting, I had already been into psionics for sometime, but that doesn't mean I wasn't stupid. Two old mods in particular set me straight (neither of whom are here now). I used to be the DBZ'er. I soon found out I was being an uninformed idiot.

A solution to such a problem isn't easy. I dont think its something you can do on the "frontend". When I say frontend, I mean right on the forums themselves, ex. initiating a new rule. I think in order to bring less "fluff" into an organization, you have to be out targeting those who are less suseptable to it.

PsiPog has always stood for Psychic Students in Pursuit of Guidance, but I think the targets and goals of psipog have changed a lot throughout the years. The "vibe" is different than it used to be. Such a change isn't bad, however, I think it is attracting a different audience.

Sean, you've mentioned before that PsiPog is targeted towards a very newbie type of audience. There's nothing wrong with that. Everyone has to start somewhere, so it might as well be a solid foundation. I think however, that we're making too wide of a sweep. There have been great new guys, Apollo for example is now a junior mod here, yet is somewhat "new" to psipog. However, people like him are in the minority.

I think targeting is our "backend" answer. I think having psipog attract intelligent newbies asking intelligent questions is what would solve the fluff problem. Though, finding a way to target this audience isn't exactly easy.

I sometimes think psipog has become too "open". Not in all aspects, but just in certain things. People are getting away with things that nobody ever could under the "totalitarian" approach of years gone by. I agree that that approach is NOT the way to run a community, but I had to admit that fluff was stomped out more quickly.

We lock posts to set an example for the community. However, everyday I see at least 2 new locked posts, usually for the same things over and over. Obviously the "make an example of the fools" idea isn't as effective as we all thought it would be. They shouldn't be banned for it, but I just dont think the incoming visitors are getting the message.

In my opinion, by the time they get to the forums, its too late to make that influence. They need to have a direction from the moment they get to the mainpage. They need to be informed what is expected, so that they have a sense of the "style" before they come and hit the "post" button.

I hate comparing two communities like this, but I just need an example. I haven't had much of a problem with fluff at my community (well, before it went *poof*). Perhaps the fact that psipog has a 300%+ size increase changes things, but I dont think that's all there is to it. Our sites have very different directions, and I think that "vibe" is what controls who stays and posts, and who leaves for something else. I am not targeted towards a completely new audience, and I am focusued on what topics I want covered. I think this eliminates a few people from the "newbie" spectrum. Since PsiPog is newbie oriented, I dont suggest doing what I"m doing, but I think you get the idea about the kind of targeting I'm talking about.

I'll probably come back and edit/add to this post as I think about this more, and maybe refine a few things that I left open ended.

I hope we can come up with something, and sorry for the long post.

~ Stony

Posted on Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:10 pm

PantsParty

Joined: 28 Nov 2005
Posts: 514

I agree with Daniel. It does make sense. And the 2 week waiting limit is a good idea as well. You know, I emphasized alot of important things in my article. I laid out things that are frowned upon by forum members. There is even a link to my article in the rules thread. If people choose to act a certain way after reading the rules and maybe even reading my article, they could very possibly have what's coming to them.

Posted on Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:10 pm

Mad_Hatter

Joined: 19 Feb 2006
Posts: 393

I already PM'd you my idea. I'd be in favor of a two week waiting period, or something else. The thing about fluffy people is that some of them are inherently stuck in their ways. They believe what they do and don't like to change. They might eventually, but the hard part is putting up with them while they do change. You are right, we need to work on speeding up that process. Through whichever means is most effective, I would say.

Danial's idea is an interesting one, but it relies on the community. I'd hope that this community, as a whole, is smart enough to moderate itself through a punishment and reward system. I don't know though. Only actual implementation of this would tell us one way or another.

I hope we can find an effective way to improve the current system though.

Posted on Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:22 pm

neveza

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 1147

DanielH's idea is great.

I think we should have a 3 warning then banned. Break any rule, becomes a warning.

or my other idea, fluff points, 25 points = banned. every fluff\rule breaking post or topic = 1 point. every month a point is deducted. But I find that to be a bit much.

Could there be a auto-link to the FAQ after registering?

Posted on Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:43 pm

Vulcanis

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 22

What about the people even the community tells to stop?

PsikillerX or whoever it is, has been posting extremely fluffy comments, and many of us have told him to stop. I left for a month, then came back, and, looking at the forums, hes still posting un-intelligent stuff.

Posted on Sat Aug 12, 2006 10:07 pm

neveza

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 1147

Vulcanis wrote:

psikillerx, I've not seen a single post from him or it for a while...So, I don't know why you're complaining about the dude.

Posted on Sat Aug 12, 2006 10:25 pm

InnerFire

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 172

I mirror a lot of Stony's views, in my view of the situation, its really not a problem as much as an adjustment that needs to be made, PsiPog does a great job of attracting a very large body of newbies, I don't think its even the targeting as much as its just to be expected that even a portion of said body will be more prone to acting fluffy. Theres two things we can and should probably fix to help handle this, one's already been talked about which is trying to handle these people better, the other one is I think as a seperate group from just the mods we should try to build up a greater body of semi-experienced people. Like Stony says its fine for PsiPog to be really targeted for newer people (and its probably a good thing for Pog and some communities to be like that), but I think what's missed a little is for this really to be a community that handles a large traffic of new people there needs to be a medium sized body of people there to help them out.

Now I think theres a good number of people here to fit that hole but because the way Pog works currently they end up spending more time in communities that are more populated by more experienced people, now it'd be difficult and unreasonable to change the focus of the site, but we should throw some outlets out to give the more advanced people here reason to hang out at Pog more, not only does this keep us more of the attention from the semi-experienced base of people and thus we can better control fluffy activity by having more people to help set people straight but also it gives more of an 'air' of how we want things to work around here. This need not be anything too heavy (I know usually my drawn-out suggestions make people cringe from a percieved high amount of work to implement the idea), but there has to be some sponsored outlet either in the forums or chat (I like the 2nd better), aside from one suggestion I'll leave it up to the other posters to thing of something for that.

Anyways my suggestion: even though I can't always make it to them myself, I'm a big fan of chat events, whether formal or informal, I really think picking times where people know theres either something to learn (i.e. a class) or something cool to talk about (more of an informal discussion) brings more people around - and sometimes gets them to stick around more even when there isn't something going on. While the first one most community guys don't want just anyone leading classes which is understandable, a discussion (as long as the topic doesn't break any of the rules) is not going to end the world and it could be organized by a trusted regular or junior staff.

I also mirror the sentiment that the forums should have some sort of time before you can post or something, but if we do that the q/a need to be kept an eye on since I know from just my experience the reason I came looking for online communites and thus Pog is I was having some troublesome issues that needed answers (and they were specific enough to not be helped just through article reading), so going back to my first point while its good for giving newbies some patience, we don't want the restrictions to block out non-newbies that are just new to the site (yes they could find answers on a different community but we want them here right? Razz

)

Posted on Sun Aug 13, 2006 2:01 am

Jael

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 55

Fluff content...

One point of clarification is the definition of fluff. It is not the same as being ignorant. Ignorant I can deal with easily enough... fluff takes patience, which may or may not be available.

I like the definition we use in PSC:

Quote:

Fluffbunny: A moron in serious need of a clue, especially when clues are readily available; a moron studying hard to become an idiot, and failing the course.

People regularly ignore the comments that Peebrain et al have posted. I doubt that more warnings would be helpful. Something passive, such as the waiting time to post, would be more effective.

It is rather disheartening when folks who have been around a while act like a fluff. However, people do stupid things all the time. It's amazing any of us are alive, really. Hopefully those stupid things are moments of stupidity and not a pattern. The pattern is the bad thing.

My two pence,

Jael

Posted on Sun Aug 13, 2006 2:36 am

Oneta

Joined: 28 Nov 2005
Posts: 46

First off, I've never liked the word "Fluff" anyways. I've always categorized it alongside "noob" and "pwn" as some horrible internet slang that causes more confusion than the effort it saves in calling someone a "fluffer" or labeling something "fluff". So let's go back to the meaning of the word, which I only found three that actually fit this occasion. And no, I didn't not scour psioinic websites for their formal definition of the word fluff, which has been made to include just about any living person on some level. Instead I got the most formal definitions from sites which are run by the general public. You may say, "Well what does the general public know about Psionics!?". In this case it isn't about what context the word is in, but that it is being used at all. Also, with the way people are throwing the word fluff around as if it has a general definition understood by all, then we are going to take a look at what those general definitions are.

First one : Something vacuous, such as a verbal statement, without any particular meaning or value. Irrelevant details that may cloud the issue of main concern.

This could simply mean anything someone posted about the original subject that is a bit off topic. Such as the topic being about making "psi-pets" to dance on your desk and then someone posting in said thread, about a crazy construct they made one time that kept sucking in energy, and finally exploded. It has no meaning to the original subject of making psi-pets for dancing, unless of course this construct that was reffered to, was in fact, a psi-pet. Then it would be acceptable if offered as a warning of what not to do when making psi-pets, or in case you are just trying to make it known of your experiences, you could leave out the part about losing control of it. This by the previous definition could be considered fluff.

Well if that's what "Fluff" is, then what isn't "Fluff" you wonder? According to the following definition if someone asked "How do I fire Kamehamehas?". Any response to this would not be fluff, because it would all pertain to the topic at question. So in turn, while this is not relavent to Psipog, it is relavent to the topic at hand. You might try and say the question was without meaning. But people ask questions to learn, and that would be the original meaning behind asking such a question, to learn what one should do.

If this is an accepted definition of "Fluff", how does it apply to its usage around Psionic communities? You would then have to compare it to the overall goal of the Community which is questioning such. At Psipog, we don't allow combat. So the relavence the latter question would have to our overall goal, would be none. Then you can efficiently deem this as fluff according to the following definition.

Second one: Description for people expounding on their ability to levitate cars or blast people away with their "psi-balls". Popularly used in "DBZ fanboy" discussions.

This definition is apparently what the term "Fluff" originated as in Psionic communities, and still holds strong in people's mind today. What is really going on here when we call people "Fluff" for having no idea of the potential of Psionics? We are simply telling them that they are stupid for not understanding something that they probably just got introduced to, and their imagination is running wild with ideas that they just want to discover. If it wasn't for these imaginations and ideas people have, the world would be a very dull place today. Even such crazy ideas as people get from Dragonball Z lead to healthy exploration of Psionics. It promotes interest in discovering the limitations of such, and promotes overall growth and understanding of what can and can't be reached. Most people who ask how to accomplish such goals that they have seen in Anime, or such cartoons, are simply trying to discover the boundaries and see what they can accomplish on their own with ideas from others.

I do not promote trying to copy everything one sees in anime, because I myself understand the boundaries that lie between myself and what I see on TV because I have attempted such things. For those that haven't, it lingers in their imagination until they carry out events which say otherwise. Nor do I promote when people who I know truly believe they can carry out such acts on a daily basis. This is based on my own personal experience though, which doesn't speak for everyone.

I do promote healthy exploration into Psionics, and if it takes discovering the grayer areas of Psionics before you learn what you can and can't achieve, then I am not going to say which is better, and which isn't. Sometimes you can learn from other's experience, sometimes you have to learn things from your own experience. It all depends on the issue at hand.

So if this is what "Fluff" is, then how does it apply to Psionic communities also? Some communites may see it as acceptable, simply due to the subject matter that such claims pertain to. Comparing it to the ideas and rules of Psipog, it does not follow the rules of "No chi", nor the rules of "No Combat". But the original definition given also includes levitating objects, and the word "psi-balls", which are both healthily promoted at Psipog. So if you are going to use this definition of fluff, you are going to have to rethink your career in Psionics, because it was all just deemed "Fluff". Maybe not by your definition, but by someone's definition, you are infact "Fluff".

The last one is the only definition out of a dictionary, that could logicaly be applied as a means of singling people out(the rest could be applied to anyone at anytime, and such is the fate of words with general definitions), and it goes as following :

Something of little substance or consequence, especially:
Light or superficial entertainment: The movie was just another bit of fluff from Hollywood.
Inflated or padded material: The report was mostly fluff, with little new information.

This is a rather general definition, but due to the fact I found it in the dictionary, I decided to use it. By this definition, "Fluff" is anything that contains something of little interests to you, or anyone who may be reading. Such as Sally, an avid practictioner of Telepathy, would never read the "Fluffy" techniques or advice given by a guy in his first week of practice. Nor would she read Jade's repeatative "Fluffy" tips posted every week on keeping on the right track to success and not to give up practice. This turns "Fluff" into a word of revelance. Looking at "Fluff" from this view would cause more chaos than it is worth, because anything can become "Fluff" according to a subjects relevance to the topics you are interested in.

Now comparing this to Psionic Communities, again requires the views of the community to come into play. Such as those here at Psipog, where we have set goals and ideas of what is accepted in the range of Psionics. Subjects which fall out of the range of the overall idea towards Psionics are cast aside into the "Fluff" pile.

What "Fluff" is not :
1. General terms for morons.
2. People who ask questions because they don't understand one person's idea or explanation of something.
3. People who simply have different views than you specifically.
4. People new to Psionics.

If you call any of the latter "Fluffy", then maybe you should read a dictionary sometime, because words have already been invented for such situations, and there is no need for arrogance in such situations compelling one to come up which such words as "Fluff". In fact words have been invented for just about every situation the word "Fluff" has been used in. The only solution in such cases is to come up with a standard definition for a word, and make it known. This has not been done with the word "Fluff" as seen recently in the said definitions of "Fluff". If you are going to distinguish what is "Fluff" and what isn't, first know what you truly believe in your ownself, and then work your way from there. While this may not mean too much, it is basically stating before you can dish out what is not accepted, you must first establish what is accepted.

In all respect, the previous cases I have seen of reported "Fluff" could have been worked out with request for better explanation of what one means, and healthy skepticism if this explanation does not fit your views. In then end, do you really think telling someone who truly believes they can do such things, that they are wrong, is going to stop their mind from coming up with these ideas? From experience, I can tell you, these ideas do not fade away, even with the current understanding I have of Psionics. It is common to dream about what could be, and ideas like these are that which promote healthy exploration into that which lazy minded folk dare not go.

Posted on Sun Aug 13, 2006 3:39 am

SheepKing

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 728

I think the whole idea by and large is awesome, and it strangly coincides with me feeling like something "had to be done" to give people more of a hand at getting into Psi, and understanding it.

First of all, I was pretty fluffy back in the day. I was a new guy with the whole "Everything is possible" attitude. However, after a while, and after lengthy discussions and then "formal" training, I learned to discern what was "Right" and what was "wrong".

I like the idea of a wait for getting onto the forums. But it MUST be coupled with something for the said people to read. As they have all of psipog at there disposal, it might be confusing, so perhaps a new type of "Introduction" system is in order for our members here at Psipog.

This "Introduction" system should be a "comprehensive" guide on what Psi is (as far as we can tell), and Psipog's version of accepted terminology and various areas of "study". Ofcourse, there WILL BE a lot of information that seems at "odds" with eachother. The whole discussion of "what psi is" can be a can of worms itself. But, on such topics, we could simply state a multitude of ideas that the new person can ponder and choose to stick with until something better comes along.

After all, we are not here to force people to think psi is a certain way, but to help expand their belief system on it, and help them get started in discovering their own versions of the truth of Psi/Psychic stuff.

I have been thinking about this subject for a while now, and think that it would not only do great to have such an introduction system (of course with all the "bugs" worked out) for new members, but also be awesome for current members! It's like killing two birds with one stone, but instead of killing them, we're feeding them. :-p

Things that I find help out "new people" and "fluffy people":
1) Role models: Everyone seems to find someone to "mimic" until they can hold their own.
2) Intelligent Discussion: Everyone needs to discuss things in order to find out information and learn about new ideas/views.
3) Basic Understanding: Everyone must believe that they have a grasp on what Psi is before they continue practicing, or advance "Far". Also need to know of some "limits and factors" involved in psi training/growth. Especially in the area of intelligent goal setting and practice/growth potential.
4) Clear Communication: Maybe this should be number one. Without Clear communication, everyone is left saying "What the hell just happened?"
5) Organized Information: Organized information definetly makes it a LOT easier to learn.
6) Someone to help out: Someone you can ask questions to, or get help from.

----

Those are just some of the things that I thought would help. I like this topic already.

Posted on Sun Aug 13, 2006 8:53 am

Peebrain

Site Admin
Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 716

Cool, thanks for the ideas everyone. I'm surprised by how different people responded Smile

.

One idea that I've seen work in other communities (specifically, DreamViews), is an "adoption" type of system, for newbies. When you are new to the forum, someone from a pool of experienced people "adopts" you. They are there to just help the person one on one, and answer newbie-ish questions that you might have, or just help find where the information is. This could prevent a LOT of fluff, because every new person would have a point of contact that helps them get used to the community, one on one.

Just another idea to think about.

~Sean

Posted on Sun Aug 13, 2006 9:18 am

maxus

Joined: 13 Jun 2006
Posts: 851

^ I like that idea.

~M

Posted on Sun Aug 13, 2006 9:59 am

Roy

Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 416

Peebrain wrote:

Cool, thanks for the ideas everyone. I'm surprised by how different people responded Smile

I think that's a really good idea, actually.

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