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Intelligence- Humankind’s Greatest Flaw?
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Posted on Tue Jan 02, 2007 4:49 pm
Niushirra Joined: 17 Jan 2006 Posts: 299	psiready wrote: The thing is, is that humans in essence don't really have free will. Humans are machines like I said, the brain is you. At the moment my subconscious precedes my conscious, if I act, I act willfully, will which comes from the subconscious, if I decide, I decide on the logic and notions which come from the subconscious. If I do not act, then I have no will, therefore when I act I act on will. I am like a child, who thinks he is making big decisions but is really being guided by the hands of a teacher. Myself, I will listen to the logic of my subconscious, I have no reason to think things and to search for things if the subconscious does not give me things to search for and things to think. But in truth who is doing the thinking, because it is not you, who is searching, it is not you. I am acting on thoughts that are acting on me. It's like the conscious is half-blind and the subconscious produces phenomona. If you think about it, it is like neither exists but they both together cause confusion and pain. You have no proof for your theory or proof that the human mind can in fact break free of a logic system and do something interesting. It would seem we couldnt get new ideas or the arts without free will.
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Posted on Tue Jan 02, 2007 9:42 pm
psiready Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 93	People will form new logic systems or break free from them when they see new logic or have their own logic compiled from their brain's system of information. Which is why people will argue over certain ideas because they both have very convincing logic stuck up in their head yet they were exposed to the same information. When they bring out this new "creative" idea or logic system it is probably because they desire fame, money, they desire to help people etc. Or they desire to make themselves feel good. In any case subconsciously they see the logic of doing this and they have logicized that fame or money will be good to have so this desire arises from the subconscious. So when they bring this out, they are bringing it out on the desire to have one of those things listed above, so their free will is thus non-existant because they are acting on desire. Desire which comes from the subconscious. As for the arts, all new works of art etc. Are not really creativity, but in a sense, a work of art conveying what the artist DESIRES to convey compiled from his/her memories corresponding to what he/she desires to convey or what appeals to him/her. They will compile to do this work of art for a DESIRE to make themselves feel good or a DESIRE for recognition and fame. Once again they are acting on desires from the subconscious and free will is non-existent.
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Posted on Tue Jan 02, 2007 9:47 pm
derricktheone Joined: 29 Jul 2006 Posts: 356	The debate about free will has been going on for decades, mabye centuries. (And by the way, has not been solved, so you cannot say we do not have freewill psiready) Both sides have interesting and logical points to back them up. Google it and find out. There's much more useful information and arguments to each side than either of you are making.
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Posted on Tue Jan 02, 2007 10:45 pm
psiready Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 93	None of what I said is scientific. It's supposed to relate directly to you. Just think about what I say. I bet you (derricktheone) could have posted your reply without even having read my post.
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Posted on Wed Jan 03, 2007 7:45 am
derricktheone Joined: 29 Jul 2006 Posts: 356	psiready wrote: None of what I said is scientific. It's supposed to relate directly to you. Just think about what I say. I bet you (derricktheone) could have posted your reply without even having read my post. I corrected you because you said in essence we do not have free will. You cannot state that as fact because you can't, and noone else ever has proven it. The debate about free will brings in the question about God's existence, "destiny", and a number of other factor's that cannot be proven at this time. To debate about it as you are, is just running in circles. Actually, I did read your post, and almost all of it was assumptions. You assume your sub conscious is what is directing you, but how do you know that? You say your brain is your true self, yet if you can observe and contemplate on and about your brain, thoughts, and your sub conscious, then who's actually doing that contemplating? Is it your sub conscious? No. It is your true self, which extends past the brain, or "normal" consciousness. (And I'm not talking about your sub conscious). Your brain is not you, it is a complex machine just like the rest of your body. If you read MA's book, he's much more thoughrough in explaining this. The point I'm trying to make is how do you know it's actually your sub conscious which controls the decisions you make, and not your "true self", or even something more. You assume everything.
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Posted on Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:17 pm
Niushirra Joined: 17 Jan 2006 Posts: 299	I'm gonna stop playing devil's advocate just to stop derrick's stupidity. PSYCHOLOGY has proven that most everything comes from our subconscious and our conscious mind basically decides what to do with it. If we have no decision at all then all our conscious mind is is an experiencing device. This is the debate, whether or not the conscious mind has a decision making capability. This is also the core of nature verus nurture. MA's book was a bunch of neo-buddhism with new spins on the self as enlightenment. The true self he describes does not have a conscious mind but if we define the subconscious as a mental entity than maybe your true self is a part of you more than I thought. I believe that the true self is an origin of all thought and mental entities and that in the same way matter warps time and space, organized energy and matter warps this commonplace into humanity. I focused mainly on the origin itself as the center point and goal but to focus on the existence and humanity. Humanity is important for some reason and may have a reason because of this importance. I haven't figured it out yet but looking at emotions as a whole of humanity will prove to be important. I'm usually right about these importance hunches. The fact of the matter is that our subconscious is spawned from true self or origin because of the way our bodies are organized physically. The conscious mind is an experiencing device that I believes in some way comes back around to reach the origin. It's another hunch.
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Posted on Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:26 pm
thegrogen Joined: 18 Jun 2006 Posts: 91	Niushirra wrote: Humanity is important for some reason and may have a reason because of this importance. I haven't figured it out yet but looking at emotions as a whole of humanity will prove to be important. I'm usually right about these importance hunches. Hunches are not evidence. You have no proof that humanity is important, and you have given no reason why it should be. I'm not going to believe you until you produce evidence and/or reasoning behind your "hunch". What do emotions have to do with importance? In what way is humanity important? Just because we're smarter than everything else? Aside from that, I agree with your post, Niushirra.
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Posted on Wed Jan 03, 2007 8:11 pm
derricktheone Joined: 29 Jul 2006 Posts: 356	Niushirra I understand and agree with almost your entire post. I know most of our decisions are made and come into thoughts from our sub conscious. I know about the psychology tests that proved when making a decision, even though it seems like a person is debating what to do, our sub conscious has already made the decision, and the ones where making an instant decision it was proven our subconscious came up with it so-many milliseconds faster. I just don't believe ALL of our thoughts and decisions come from our subconscious. I don't disagree with you on most of your post. Too much assumptions and "hunches", no matter how logical they seem.
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Posted on Wed Jan 03, 2007 8:32 pm
psiready Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 93	I said the brain is you because I don't know what else to call the self. It seems the self accumulates in the brain. Unless you believe in a soul or a spirit that is. The true self you're talking about is external. People look for these things outside of themselves when really they shouldn't be worrying and should be looking at themselves. Yes Niushra has cleared it up. Conscious experience seems to be no more then the ability to experience. Which is weird, seems like I have no control over what is done. Still it seems like the conscious was put there to make you feel like you have control over that you do. Unless someone realizes this you might see that your life is basically a paradox.
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Posted on Thu Jan 04, 2007 5:39 pm
Niushirra Joined: 17 Jan 2006 Posts: 299	thegrogen wrote: Niushirra wrote: Humanity is important for some reason and may have a reason because of this importance. I haven't figured it out yet but looking at emotions as a whole of humanity will prove to be important. I'm usually right about these importance hunches. Hunches are not evidence. You have no proof that humanity is important, and you have given no reason why it should be. I'm not going to believe you until you produce evidence and/or reasoning behind your "hunch". What do emotions have to do with importance? In what way is humanity important? Just because we're smarter than everything else? Aside from that, I agree with your post, Niushirra. Alright I'll describe one of these hunches. I was thinking about the astral plane and the stream of consciousness lead me to think about connection with nature and the universe. This smacked me in the face with something I called the pulse of existence. An overwhelming peaceful feeling that consumes the mind with connectedness. I later refined this word to the origin mental characteristic or commonplace mind. When I went there the unreasonable totally ununderstandable commonplace destroyed the logical philosophy system I had. It didn't make sense but I could feel that it was importance. If I didn't have this feeling I would have dismissed this experience and kept on going with the ignorance of dualism or individualism. It was a hunch on it's importance. I hadn't described anything yet. Recent revelations about powerful emotions such as vengence, love, and rage have given me another hunch. Humans are important in relation to the origin and important to exist; which is basically just the origin. I usually don't talk about my hunches because they are so unproven and terrible. I'm working on discovering something actually important and provable. All the rest of my post I think I can prove adequetly.
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Posted on Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:25 pm
Tankdown Joined: 10 Aug 2006 Posts: 688	Niushirra wrote: I usually don't talk about my hunches because they are so unproven and terrible. Ya thats pretty much what I do.... Plus this seems rather silly...the way thegrogen put it just sounds really really silly! It sounds like asking a poor little boy who has trouble in school to change the city. Of cource it all looks like he can't and right now he really can't, now can he? But in the future if he works on it he can make a difference. I been enjoying listening to all of you but when you talk of us not having a importence today....don't exactly mean we won't have one tomorrow.
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Posted on Sun Jan 07, 2007 12:11 am
WhiteRaven Joined: 13 Jan 2006 Posts: 343	Grogen, I did read your second post. "I think Humanity's greatest flaw is its lack of control over its own emotions. Emotions are powerful things that can do much for us; in some ways, emotions like happiness, love, etc. are the only things keeping us from killing ourselves. And yet, simultaneously, emotions can kill us. Violence and war are the result of uncontrolled anger and hatred (which is an emotion that I think is immature), and love in the wrong circumstances can result in anger, sadness, hatred..." and that's the kind of nonsense that makes people think repressing these so-called negative emotions is a good thing, I've had to explain too many times to too many people, and not just on here, repressing your anger will cause far more negative consequences than simply getting angry when you're angry. war is a good thing. it releases anger, reminds people that they aren't invincible, and most importantly, makes us stronger. think of bodybuilding, tearing the muscle tissue makes it grow stronger. the immune system weakens without viruses and bacteria to fight. if osama binladen had waited much longer to attack he probably would have defeated us. he dealt us a massive blow as it were. "Emotions are like intelligence. Used right, they are the most powerful tool in existence. Used wrong, and they destroy everything that we consciously and subconsciously work for." "The only way to have TRUE world peace is to remove as many tendencies for violence as is possible. If everyone could get over hatred, could control and direct their own emotions, as some can their intelligence, then the world would be a better place." you think so, as do most people, but you're wrong, the birth of one person who couldn't or chose not to could doom all things. "I'm a very emotional person. I've felt love, and I've felt anger, and I've felt sadness and happiness. I write poetry. But thanks to my emotional control, it is no longer possible for me to hate anything. It's no longer even possible for me to hurt anything, simply because I had to learn to control my emotions when I was younger." you don't hurt anything? You don't kill anything? how do you eat? have you evolved into a plant-man? have you learned the art of photosynthesis? plants live too, you know. "My emotions tended to get me into trouble, and so I learned to control them, direct them as I see fit." society has conditioned you to go against your natural feelings, it always has. "I can be happy anytime I like no matter what the circumstances. I hardly ever get angry, or sad, because I always manage to twist those emotions to happiness or some other "good" emotion." you are repressing them, covering anger in forgiveness, and sorrow in joy. you may not think that, it can be difficult to tell, but that's what you're doing. "There are still things enlightened people must do to survive in the society we live in. There is also a self-determined purpose they will pursue because they are manifestations of loving action. Without fear, prejudice or ego, they will help others in their lives. There is plenty to do without desire being involved. You simply don't understand desire-free, loving action because you've so rarely experienced it and so you can't conceive a person's entire existence being comprised of it." you're right, I can't conceive a person's entire existence being comprised of "loving action" I could not live a life purely in helping others, but you shouldn't just offer charity to every random stranger in trouble, you see the big problem with that is that helping people may often end up just hurting them more. "Enlightenment does not come without emotions. In fact it comes with bliss far more pleasureable than the relatively minor emotions you currently feel. Again, the only reason you have such stilted views of enlightenment is because the only way you could life the way enlightened people do (in general, because their lives are extremely varied but they do have common aspects) is a terribly unhappy one. You've got so many desires that the life of an enlightened person would not satisfy them and so you'd be an emotionally-shutdown wreck, and so you've assumed all enlightened people are just total wrecks who refuse to accept that fact. The problem is that you're assuming the way they think and feel follows the same mechanism, which it doesn't and thus, they are in fact very happy and emotionally expressive." maybe, but again, a major problem with gaining joy from helping people, from providing too much assistance, is that by attempting to help people you may end up harming them a great deal.
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Posted on Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:56 am
somefatguy Joined: 17 Jan 2006 Posts: 1187	Oh great, I go on vacation and now you all come back while I'm not around... Grrr
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