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is it so hard?
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is it so hard? on Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:52 pm

randywm

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 510

Is it really that hard to believe in psi? All these scientists need is a iron clad demonstration. Well thats what i think. What do u think is needed to be done for modern science to accept psionics?
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Posted on Sat Jan 14, 2006 8:03 pm

Eldibs

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 909

The phrase that I find fits best is this:

"For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who don't, none will suffice."
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Posted on Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:13 am

Vladimir

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 666

The nature of psi is that it's effects can be explained somehow through the current accepted version of "logic".

I suppose people who are really good at PK (really good) could prove it. People who can move couches and canoes with their mind that is.
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iron-clad demonstrations on Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:18 pm

Rainsong

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 67

There have been demonstrations of PK under laboratory conditions. Dr. Olga Worral affected a cloud chamber, for example.

There are aspects of psionics which make people nervous, and with good reason. These include, but are not limited to:
- reliable telepathy is a threat to privacy, international politics, industry, because secrets become much more difficult (or impossible) to completely conceal
- emotions running out of control in training can cause unintentional micro-pk on the part of the pilot to make the computers of his/her fighter aircraft malfunction
- psionics as a field of study is "weird". People tend not to like "weird".

Rainsong
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Posted on Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:23 pm

randywm

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 510

So everyone agrees that it shouldnt go mainstream and stay in hiding. Rainsong had all good reasons, and most of those are good enough for me to not get on a plane with any psions Very Happy . Its makes me angry that we cannot spread the word of the skills people can have.
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Posted on Sun Jan 15, 2006 1:24 pm

Aphanas

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 17

There is actually quite a bit of published research out there on psionic phenomenon (in the 100s of studies at least, if not 1000s). The difficulty, as with any scientific study, is whether the experimental designs published to-date stand up under peer review and whether they can be replicated by other research groups.

The first part (study design standing up under peer review scrutiny) has actually been accomplished reasonably well by groups such as P.E.A.R (Princeton Engineering Anomolies Research) looking at micro-PK, studies by Harold Sherman on telepathy, Charles T. Tart's studies of telepathic effects under mutual hypnosis, James Spottiswoode's studies of RV and the effects of Local Sidereal Time, etc.

It is replication by other research groups which tends to be the real sticking point (and part of the hesitance to accept the studies mentioned above by the general scientific community). Replication of psionic study results has been plagued with problems, even within research groups that are already convinced the phenomenon exists based on their own previous studies. The difficulty seems to be that psionic studies suffers from what I would loosely call the 'Schrodinger's cat' quantum mechanics problem. We have not been able to effectively separate the experimenter from the experimental design when it comes to psionic effects - the very act of observing the experiment alters the results, and who is doing the observation seems to be significant. This creates a real problem for reproducing experimental results in other labs, which is one of the basic safety checks on our current scientific method.

That is not to say that results cannot be replicated in other labs, because they can and have been replicated with many of these studies. The problem is that every lab running the same experimental design in the scientific community doesn't seem to be able to replicate the results (due to this experimenter influence). We unfortunately do not understand that experimenter influence well enough yet to account for it and eliminate it in the experimental design. This difficulty in replicating results has allowed many in the scientific community to point to studies that were not able to be replicated and "toss the baby out with the bathwater" so to speak - dismissing any study that looks at similar phenomenon.

So... that's a long answer to why there is still no scientific consensus on psionic phenomena. It is fairly easy to demonstrate that psionic effects occur in laboratory settings (and there are many, many studies published documenting this), but replicating experimental results has been a real challenge - which allows dismissal of the phenomena as "not scientifically established." Combine that with Rain's observations on the social reasons for our cultures to pretend psi abilities don't exist, and you have a fair amount of resistance to overcome within the scientific community.

--Aphanas
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Posted on Mon Jan 16, 2006 1:55 pm

tkjon

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 13

Vladimir wrote:
The nature of psi is that it's effects can be explained somehow through the current accepted version of "logic".

I suppose people who are really good at PK (really good) could prove it. People who can move couches and canoes with their mind that is.


True...if I keep practicing in the next 3 years I may be able to move a CRT monitor.
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Posted on Mon Jan 16, 2006 2:33 pm

Bex

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 38

I agree with Rainsong that it will end up biting us in the ass if the gov't. etc. gets wind of our interest in psi here because of its implications. Some theorists believe that's why psychedelic drugs are outlawed -- some of the psi phenomena (not PK, but empathy/telepathy/etc) are routinely experienced by people who are tripping. Some people also argue that the large contemporary religions put spiritual power in the hands of only a few (ie. the pope, or just priests, or just rabbis, etc), rather than teaching people that anyone and everyone is capable of having a spiritual connection to something greater, for the same reasons. And I am not meaning to equate psionics with spirituality here, but I think there is a good possibility that some of the phenomena commonly experienced as "spiritual" is really psionics. The reverse could also be true. Who knows?

So like Rainsong said, I think this stuff is a threat to the ruling powers. Imagine if everyday citizens were using telepathy to access a rival company's trade secrets, or to find out who is a spy, etc. It would wreak small havoc if it was considered legitimate.

That said, this is not new, and there is such a thing as BlackOps. A bestseller right now is the nonfiction book "The men who stare at goats". I read it and it was awesome. All about the US government's use of remote viewers and psychics throughout the past century. And the title alludes to a chapter about a man who can kill a goat while in the next room, just by thinking it.
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Posted on Mon Jan 16, 2006 4:12 pm

Stealth578

Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 10

Quote:
Originally posted by Bex:
And I am not meaning to equate psionics with spirituality here, but I think there is a good possibility that some of the phenomena commonly experienced as "spiritual" is really psionics. The reverse could also be true. Who knows?


My theory on spirituality is that it is your subconscious being almost forced into putting out SOMETHING because the people are so desperate that if they do not feel SOMETHING they are going to ultimately lose faith. and to be honest i would love to see them lose faith.. (gah i'm such a hateful atheist)
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Posted on Mon Jan 16, 2006 4:22 pm

SABscope

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 62

Stealth578 wrote:
Quote:
Originally posted by Bex:
And I am not meaning to equate psionics with spirituality here, but I think there is a good possibility that some of the phenomena commonly experienced as "spiritual" is really psionics. The reverse could also be true. Who knows?


My theory on spirituality is that it is your subconscious being almost forced into putting out SOMETHING because the people are so desperate that if they do not feel SOMETHING they are going to ultimately lose faith. and to be honest i would love to see them lose faith.. (gah i'm such a hateful atheist)

Join the club:D
As for the government issue, this may be true, but a short shock to society might be worth it to vastly increase our knowledge of the universe...
I mean, I've gained a great deal of knowledge from psipog, which is run by people in their spare time and the coming together of a secelt few. If the whole WORLD came up with different techniques, theories and such, our understanding would grow. Also, after a growing period, if shielding was properly taught, then I'm sure there could be a way to keep anyone out of your head. Imagine personal mind-shielders instead of bodyguards...
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Re: is it so hard? on Mon Jan 16, 2006 5:43 pm

Woody

Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 115

randywm wrote:
Is it really that hard to believe in psi?

Keep in mind that nobody on this Earth thinks like you do, keep an open mind and youll get farther.

randywm wrote:
All these scientists need is a iron clad demonstration.

Yes they do, and for good reason. What type of world would be live in if gravity was "that thing that makes us stop from floathing around and stuff"?

randywm wrote:
Well thats what i think. What do u think is needed to be done for modern science to accept psionics?

Simply put, proof.
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Re: is it so hard? on Mon Jan 16, 2006 6:16 pm

token

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 90

Woody wrote:
Simply put, proof.


If most of you think about it, how much do you really want psionics to be accepted by the world? I know I do, but a part of me really doesn't. Rainsong already said most of it. If the world accepts psionics for what it really is then a whole new level of dichotomy would open up between people, but then again, psionics would be considered 'real' by everyone.

Good topic to discuss though.
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Posted on Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:30 pm

mattz1010

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 885

Now, when the military gets wind of this, first they're going to laugh at it.

Then, they're going to try to ignore it, as it eats slowly at their thoughts.

Afterwards, the government will have enough information to be able to successfully implement psionics into the military. Then, and only then, will any foes of whichever military has it, will be completely, and totally: fucked.

Razz
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Re: is it so hard? on Mon Jan 16, 2006 11:26 pm

Woody

Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 115

token wrote:
Woody wrote:
Simply put, proof.


If most of you think about it, how much do you really want psionics to be accepted by the world? I know I do, but a part of me really doesn't. Rainsong already said most of it. If the world accepts psionics for what it really is then a whole new level of dichotomy would open up between people, but then again, psionics would be considered 'real' by everyone.

Good topic to discuss though.


Well, in my opinion, at some point in the evolutionary chain every human will have to be able to hold the life of every other human in their hands. This might be the beginning of the next step.
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Posted on Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:20 am

Micky_P

Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 50

During the cold war the governemnts of both the US and the Soviet Union Poured millions into remote viewing research. With some conlcusive results.
But not enough for the US program to be dissassembled in 1989.

Concider this, the US governemnt knows. They already have all the tallented Psions they need for their research. So they dont need to bother with piss ants like ourselves.

Psions would be useless as your standard ground soldiers. Under enemy fire is not a great way to concentrate on manipulating psi.

Better would be spies and assassins. Using the hedge shield to enter areas without gaurds noticing. Radiating a different Psi signiture to make others believe they are someone else. Reading the throughts of gaurds putting in security codes to gain access to areas. Using Psi to interfere with the signal from video cameras.

The possibilities are limitless.

However I myself do not support this kind of use of psi. Psi shouldnt be used to serve the intrests of one country or another. Its not ethical. Even though we all know there are unethical people willing to do what the ethical among us would refuse to do.
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