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| A response to Martial Artist and what he said about chakras. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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| A response to Martial Artist and what he said about chakras. on Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:57 pm | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
DanielH
Joined: 27 Nov 2005 |
http://psipog.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3505&start=15
Here is what I have to say about Martial Artist's post. What Martial Artist wrote is in quotes.
Sorry, but that is illogical. You do not have a shred of evidence suggesting that chakras are real. Let's say that chakras are real for a second. So what? My personality deals with energy, so? Does that mean that chakras are real? Nuclear reactors use energy too, but do they have chakras? I have very serious doubts about either me or any nuclear reactor having one or more chakras.
I'm sorry, but how do you know that chakras deal with the "non-physical" again? I'd like to see you explain that and be able to back it up. Let's say that everything does in fact consist of one energy. So what? That does not mean that we use all energy in the same manner. That does not prove that psi nor chakras are real.
What do you propose that these more "dense and material manifestations" do? And what exactly are they? I'm not sure what you mean by "subtler energies" either.
I'm sorry to tell you this, but chakras do not manifest my energy. I eat to get energy. Excess calories get stored as fat. You need to eat to gain energy and live... that cannot be done by using your chakras. It can be done with meat, fruits, grains, and so on. That is why people need to eat to live. Do too much of this and you get fat. Your personality has a lot to do with your genetics, environment, and your brain. This is why brain damage can change a person's personality. Let's look at some examples of a personality change due to brain damage: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/health/healthmain.html?in_article_id=393938&in_page_id=1774&in_a_source http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/855703.stm We see this all the time. ADD/ADHD, depression, and myriad other diseases, drugs, alcohol, etc. Do I even have to post sources for this? The problem seems to lie in the brain and is without a valid metaphysical explanation. The way you act and view the world can deal a lot with language too. http://www.livescience.com/humanbiology/ap_060626_math.html http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/1094492 Incredible, huh? I think it's called the "linguistic relativity hypothesis."
Do you see a pattern here? You add your own opinion and fail to back it up with data. I'd like to say something: You do not know everything. Your saying something does not make it true. We need credible evidence backing up your statements. It'd be very nice to see something credible backing up what you say. Can you offer us that?
What others? Are these people credible, or do they just make stuff up? Have they done extensive scientific research into this? When and where? Please be specific. You're confusing people with pseudo-science. You're not posting credible information and you make logical error after logical error. I'm sorry, but neither your post nor your claims stand up against a very basic analysis. It would certainly not hold up any better under careful scrutiny. |
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| Posted on Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:05 am | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Mad_Hatter
Joined: 19 Feb 2006 |
Wow. I knew you would respond to what he posted, but in another topic entirely? I'll just throw something into this argument before it gets too heated:
Chakras, are in my opinion, almost 100% belief. There isn't much to back them up, besides personal experience and the fact that theres a lot of books about them that say pretty much the same thing. That's not very good evidence, and I don't think MA is going to be able to provide hard scientific evidence because western civilization rejects the idea as a whole. So basically, if MA can form an intelligable argument with proof, more power to him, but asking him to prove chakras is like asking a one legged dog to climb mount everest. The only difference is the dog has a better chance. Good luck to you though, MA. I'd like to see proof for chakras, and idea I think may be somewhat applicable to reality, or at least energy manipulation, in some respect. |
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| Posted on Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:09 am | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
DanielH
Joined: 27 Nov 2005 |
I would have posted much sooner, but today was my first day at work so I was busy. After that I relaxed with my family for some celebration. 
The reason I posted it in another topic was because the other topic wasn't a debate topic. This is the skeptics topic so I figured I'd move the entire thing here. |
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| Posted on Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:12 am | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Mad_Hatter
Joined: 19 Feb 2006 |
Ah, good idea. Also, that sig is all too true. The only shame is the people that won't understand it are the people who probably make that error the most. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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| Posted on Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:36 am | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Rahmid
Joined: 14 Apr 2006 |
Thats cool, but chakras are 100% belief.
So it's really a question of whether or not it is religion and agaisnt the rules. I believe in chakra's but I really dont give a shit. Not alot of people here know what chakras really are anyway. I've asked if it was or not many times but no one showed interest. Rahmid |
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| Posted on Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:42 am | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
randywm
Joined: 14 Jan 2006 |
They are mostly a belief system, and help some people to gather energy. Why dont you lay off other peoples beliefs? Dont disrespect MA. He one of the wisest people ive met on this site. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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| Posted on Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:59 am | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Arcadus
Joined: 06 Jul 2006 |
well i dont know much about chakras but i agree with Martial about chakras 'manifesting and regulating psi' this is shown with the example of people getting more done with psi when excited.
also you have said a lot about no 'proof' of chakras, but all you have really done is compared them to real world objects, such as nuclear reactors; probably in order to prove them as hoaxes. unfurtunately nuclear reactors dont cry, fall in love, feel pain etc. so your arguments against the existance of chakras is not really valid as they cannot meet the complexity of the human mind (which we do not know much about the minds full powers either yet), pysically/emotionally/metally/spritualy etc. proof that chakras exist? how about proof that they *dont* exist. im sorry that this reply sounds short or lacking enough anaylsis, but ive got my trail exam on tomorrow maybe later ill fully read your article and post another reply. oh actually martial would prolly have done that by the time i can |
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| Posted on Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:40 am | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
MartialArtist
Joined: 03 Feb 2006 |
Gee, I just spend about two hours writing a post to answer yours Daniel. Just when I pressed Submit, internet stopped on me.  . Hehe, guess I'll write it again, Just not now. So I'll respond later on probably.
The strange thing is.. I copied the whole text every now and then, in case internet would fail on me, so I could paste it in word. So I actually did not mind that internet crashed, so I started word, and wanted to paste it. But it did not paste anything. Bullocks .
I'll see what I will do, later on. MA |
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| Posted on Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:12 am | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
DanielH
Joined: 27 Nov 2005 |
I'm sorry... what did you just say? I can't compare chakras to real world objects? What else am I supposed to compare them to? Star Trek objects? Perhaps you misunderstood what I was talking about then. I was saying that because we use energy does not mean we use chakras. Just because we're complex does not mean that we use chakras. All those things you mentioned are merley biological and nothing shows that chakras are tied to them. Proof that chakras don't exist? You'll have to define chakra for me to even begin that. Short or lacking enough analysis? In what way? I'm not sure you even read the entire thing. |
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| Posted on Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:27 am | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
MartialArtist
Joined: 03 Feb 2006 |
Hi there Daniel, nice to talk to you again  .
I clearly stated above my post that my post was meant for those who already believed in the existance of chakras, or who might believe in it. I also said very clearly that if you did not, then don't bother about what I say. Besides that, your comparison with chakras and nuclear reactors is kind of hilarious . No offense, but come-on, where did I ever state that everything that uses energy has chakras in them? We agree on one thing: I have serious doubts also that a nuclear reactor has one or more chakras.
I can tell you how I know that chakras have to do with the non-physical, though I cannot give you any source of how it has been proven by some western scientist. And since that is the only source you will ever find reliable enough, I cannot prove it to you. I know that chakras have to deal with the non-physical because I experience that. I experience it everyday, since I create my own day consciously. My day consists out of synchronicity. It consists of "coļncidences" that are exactly the outcome of the wishes I create when I tune in to the non-physical level of reality. I take my wishes to the non-physical because it is the basis and source of everything physical. I believe that everything manifested is created out of the unmanifested. So I experience how chakras shape, transform and manifest the unmanifested energy, into manifested vibrations. This will sound completely nuts to you, since you lack any personal experience on the matter. You cannot comprehend this because it is an experience, not an intellectual study. And I guess that you will never be able to comprehend it because you do not believe. It is not just about not believing in chakras, for that is just semi-important. It is because you dare not open up your little safe and sound, calculatable world to new, unproven possibilities. You do not believe that we humans can take our consciousness beyond what we can see in the physical dimension, and alter things to our liking. Because of your disbelief, you will never practice it nor try to experience it seriously, since you see no point in doing so. Because of your tendency towards narrow-mindedness you will never even try to open up to something that falls outside of your little box of scientific belief. You try to put everything you hear into that small system of comprehension. You are basing your life on just this little box of belief that you have based on what you have read and heard from western scientific studies. You are excluding a world of possibilities Daniel. If only you would be able to open up more so you can experience some of the things I have, it would change your life. I pity your conditionedness of mind. Not for my sake, but for your own.
Why do you keep repeating what I said, and then say: So what? As if I was trying to make some specific point with that line? And you discard it like it is of no importance that for example everything consists out of one energy? No that does not mean that we all use energy in the same manner, nor does it prove psi or chakras are real. 1: I did not try to prove anything, it is just you trying to get prove for everything. 2: I did not claim it to be prove for the existance of psi or chakras, nor did I claim that because of that everyone uses energy in the same manner.
The denser vibrations and manifestations are more physical. Like for example the things you can touch and see and feel with your physical skin. Like matter. That is dense, that is gross. The subtler energies, is the same energy as that of matter, it just vibrates at a higher speed. It is as simple as that. Subtle energies are not seen by the physical eyes. For example your electro-magnetic energy-field. The best way to picture this, is perhaps with water. Water is one substance right? One energy. But you got grosser levels of water, like when it becomes ice, it becomes dense and solid. Then if it vibrates at a higher speed, it becomes liquid, which is more subtle than ice. But then if it vibrates with an even higher speed, it becomes even more subtle and becomes gas, which is invisible to the physical eye, and therefore more subtle. yet it remains the same energy, the same substance.
I agree, your chakras may not produce that much energy for you, because yours are closed and rarely used. So yes, you do get most of your energy out of calories and such. But you are forgetting one important aspect. You are again viewing life as just being a hard solid and dense world of matter. Sure your body has a physical and gross level to it. That is the level we are all percieving when we look at another human being the way most people look. But there is a subtler level to the body. Some would call this the energy-body, or astral body, or light-body. But for you, let's stick to the electromagnetic field which I believe has been proven by scientists to exist right? Now picture this energyfield not only around your body, but everywhere within also. Like a subtler layer of your body, a layer or level of your body that vibrates at a higher level and therefore is not seen by the physical eye. In this body, Eastern scientists say, lie the chakras. At this level of your being are they in your body. Now without these chakras daniel, your physical body would not be able to digest your food. Your organs would not be able to function. Look at the wonder of the body... There must be some kind of intelligence at work here, cannot be any different from that. This intelligence, does not come from physical matter, it comes from the subtler fields of your being. Your chakras are responsible for the functioning of your organs and everything else within your biology. Without this intelligence, your body would malfunction and die.
It is not merely my opinion I have on some information I read, it is my personal experience. It is my belief based on what I have experienced to be true. So It is not like I am adding my opinion and fail to back it up, I do not fail to back it up, since I and my experiences are the source of this information. Do you understand this? Is that not what this site is based on? Is that not somewhat Psipog's motto; to share personal experiences? That is all I do here, and you keep telling me to post sources. You see, I write posts here, from my personal experience, and then you always say I have to back everything up and state sources. So I go look on google for sources that may be similar to what I said! You see? I do not have a site at my disposal form which I draw my information that I share here... It is my experience that I share here. So I could give you dozens of sites about chakras, but you will never find exactly the things explained that I wrote here. You may see a little bit scattered on that site, and then a tiny part of what I said in other words on this site, and then a little bit over there scattered everywhere... Do you get me? Im just sharing, I am not claiming anything to be true, just sharing like everyone else here. If someone would for example explain something on how Telekinesis may work, according to him, then would you ask him to prove telekinesis is real? No. Why not? is telekinesis already a proven fact of the established science society? I believe not, perhaps it is a proven fact in the pseudo-science that you are talking about, but not the non-pseudo-science. Do you know why you would not ask him to prove telekinesis is real every time? Because psychokinesis is something most of us here have experienced or witnessed, and therefore accepted the posibility. With chakras it is no different. I have experienced it and witnessed it's process lots of times, so I have accepted their existance. Now probably there are fewer people in this room who have experienced chakras, than the number of people who have experienced telekinesis, but still it is the same procedure. Just because it is less commonly accepted because less people experience them consciously, I have to find some sort of proof for it's existance? Even if I would try to, you would always find a way to escape. As long as your protected little world can be kept the way it is, you will find something in my words that lack scientificness. It is just the way you are, it is what you do. It is your purpose to be sceptic, or so it seems. And that is Okay, we need sceptics, I just pity it for your sake that it has to be you. You are missing alot of joy and alot of possibilities.
Okay, Eckhart Tolle: Highly-respected, famous author in the west, who is considered to be, waht they call an enlightened being. Two of his books: The power of the Now; A new Earth. In his books you will not hear the word chakra, but you will see him talk about the inner, subtle energy-body and its functioning as a bridge between the unmanifested and the manifested levels of existance. The reason why I think he does not name chakras directly, is because he likes to keep his books as practical and credible and most of all, simple-to-understand as possible. I can advise his books to anyone. Especcially The Power of the Now. Deepak Chopra: Some of his books I highly recommend: The book of secrets; Quantum-healing; Unconditional life: Mastering the forces that shape personal reality; The path to Love: renewing the spirit in your life; How to know God; The spontaneous fulfillment of desire (synchronicity); The seven spiritual laws of succes. Deepak chopra is perhaps the most famous guru in the west, although he is an Indian. He is a Doctor in the west and he maintains a very scientific kind of explanations and comparisons throughout his books. So DanielH, maybe you'll like it, maybe not. He will explain to you also the distinction and relationship between the non-physical and the physical. Chakras are not a fundamental basis in his books, but he does refer to them and explains them to some extend regularely. Harry Palmer: Founder of the world-wide appreciated education called: Avatar. Writer of the book: Living deliberately. He will also divide the universe and consciousness into different levels of manifestations. Roy Martina: Has more than 25-years of experience in the medical sector. He has done a shitload of educations and he is a highly respected coach on the area of vitality and welbeingness. He has been undefeatable, 7-times European Champion in the Martial Arts. Has walked around blindfolded for half a year because his Martial Arts teacher told him to. In that period he learned to sense alot of things and learn alot about his inner body and his extraordinairy sense perceptions. He has written 40 books, of which I can advise to you expeccially: Emotional Balance. Besides that he was my personal coach for about a year, when I took the course: Future-Leadership University. He knows alot about chakras and the way they function, and he got a couple of books on them as well. He refers to them often and has studied them in depth. Sri Swami Satchidananda: He is considered a Jivan-mukta. Mukta: Liberated, Jivan: While living. It is the highest state of liberation, and it is permanent. Which mean he cannot slip back into the dualities of the mind, because all the seeds and emotional impressions in his mind are burnt. He is writer of multiple books and has been one of my greates inspirations. The yoga Sutras of Patanjali Is one of his books, and he also discusses the importance of that same unmanifested reality. Strange huh? Why do all the people who are considered to posses some higher state of consciousness talk about this distinction between physical and non-physical? All in their own words, but referring to the same. Are they all idiots as well? Do their experience come from some malfunctioning in some chemicals in some area of the brain? Hm, I hope not. Greetings, MA |
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| Posted on Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:08 am | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
somefatguy
Joined: 17 Jan 2006 |
As much as MartialArtist already made a very good response, I just want to point out the biggest point of them all. He clearly stated that if you do not believe in what he is saying don't bother saying anything about it. It is like taking a cookie when you asked your mom and she already said "No." There are many things that cannot be proven in this world by normal means. So you shouldn't always ask for an answer when only you can answer it.
That's all I have to say. ~Fat |
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| Posted on Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:16 am | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Roy
Joined: 27 Nov 2005 |
That is the absolute wrong attitude to have. Schizophrenia is something that you can only truly understand by experiencing it personally, that does not mean it can't be verified, studied, and measured. If we were to take for granted everything psychic and spiritual as personal, and therefore subjective, then there'd be no motivation to understand it in an objective manner which leads to great understanding of this phenomenon. It also allows most people to separate fact from bullshit. I'm familiar with MA's writing style. He uses elusive reasoning with weak links between spirituality, psychology, and biology to create what some would consider a coherent argument for his _subjective_ views. His viewpoints must be challenged if you want to sift through truth and falsity. Therefore, yours, MA's, or any other person's claims are subject to scrutiny whether or not they advise for or against it. You put it in the forums, then it's fair game. |
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| Posted on Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:10 pm | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Roy
Joined: 27 Nov 2005 |
You can blur definitions and use the "energy = all" argument until you're blue in the face, but you're simply distorting mainstream science to fit your subjective viewpoints. Personality is not energy. Personality is an accumlated set of traits and behaviors that makes a person unique. Energy doesn't factor into it. Also, you're using circular reasoning, which makes your argument null and void: "A chakra exists because everything is energy and therefore chakras must be energy."
These two quotes are very revealing. You know you cannot prove the existence of chakras, yet you continute to argue for their existence using your tired-hackneyed-sleight of hand-distort operational definitions-ignore huge gaps in logic arguments to try to convince others. When we combine those two quotes, this is what we get:
Now, let's shorten it a little bit:
Simply amazing.
Hmm, interesting...you're effectively saying that they won't exist unless you believe in them. Sounds like delusion to me.
Ah, the claws are coming out. You "pity" Dan because he uses intellect and skepticism to discern reality from delusion? Must be nice living on Planet X there with your chakras, where everyone is wrong except you.
Ah, I see, so it's an energy that's soooo subtle that you can't see it, and you can't feel it, and you can't measure it with any sort of technology, yet you can feel it...because you believe in it. Ok, I'm with you thus far.
Actually, I'm pretty sure that hardwired subconscious processes are responsible for bodily processes. Yes, there is some literature as to the bio-electric field that surrounds the human body, and may correlated to the body's organs and functions. Does this mean that an astral world exists? No. And does it logically follow that because the energy field exists, the body exists? No. And in this research of the bio-electric field, has there been evidence of energy centers that could be identified as chakras? You guess it: no.
No, actually you're presenting this as truth, and you do this with the weak logic and science you present in your defense. Reality is that which doesn't go away after you stop beleiving in it. You yourself admit that it doesn't exist to Dan because he doesn't believe in it. You get the idea.
There's a big difference between PK and chakras in this regard: the way in which the people at Psipog present PK, it is falsifiable. Either you do it or you don't. It can be verified on a statistical level. The way that you present chakras shows that they are not falsifiable. Every explanation you give about chakras claims that they are subtle, unseen, work in a mysterious way, and cannot be proven real unless you believe. And yes, PK is studied in lab settings, and the research is ambivalent enough to give evidence to those who believe, and support to those who don't believe. I probably wouldn't have even responded to your post, MA, if you hadn't produced the "if you don't believe, don't read" disclaimer. That is just sickening to me, and instantly sets off an alert in my mind that since you cannot prove your belief or even present your belief in a form that is suitable for verification or falsification that you would rather spout intellectually unfounded information to young, impressionable Psipoggers. As much as this website encourages the sharing of personal experiences, we also encourage healthy skepticism as much, if not moreso. Surely you have to the right to believe what you believe, and ponder it, expound upon it, share the ideas with others, argue with them, agree with them, and work with them to produce better ideas. There is no denying that. But do not disclude skeptics, or expect to have skeptics discluded from reviewing what you write. |
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| Posted on Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:52 pm | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
DanielH
Joined: 27 Nov 2005 |
I know what you said. But I read, respond, talk about, etc everything. You expect me to ignore what you say just because you tell us to? Sorry, but I won't do that. No where did you say that everything that uses energy has a chakra. So what does have a chakra?
It doesn't have to be by a western scientist. It can be by some guy in India, Japan, Israel, China, etc. Do you mind making some "coļncidences" for us? Something we can test. You base your beliefs on experiences that don't mean much. Your brain can fail. It can make errors. It is just human. Unless you can test this over and over again with different people it's useless. I understand it... that doesn't make it true though. I understand the concepts, ideas, and so on behind topics like "creation science", but that I still believe that is is stupid and false. I understand faith, but I think it is stupid. I'm open to new concepts, ideas, and beliefs so don't assume that I'm not. What I'm not open to though is new concepts, ideas, and beliefs that lack evidence suggesting that they are real. Yes, I don't believe in things without evidence... so what? That is the reason why I have a better grasp on reality than someone who believes in things like "god" just because of a feeling or some books and a message. Never try to experience things seriously? You do not know me. I have had a number of OBEs in the past because I wanted to see if they were real. Guess what... I had some OBEs. They just confirmed what I believed. I'm trying Tai Chi... not a single person has been able to make a case for chakras or "chi" there. Narrow-mindedness? I am not narrow minded. I'm open to change anything about what I believe as long as it has EVIDENCE. I will believe in chakras when there is a proper amount of good evidence showing that they might just be real. I've read non-mainstream psionics books before. I have researched these things. Yes, I am basing my life on a few things that have evidence. I'm not going to base my life on anything that does not have evidence. Why would anyone do otherwise is beyond me. And it's not just "western scientific studies" either... the eastern world has a lot of good stuff too. Especially when it comes to robotics. Stop being a racist... science is science. It doesn't matter if it's western or eastern. The majority of both western and eastern scientists believe in the same things. Like I said... I believe in what has evidence. I'm not going to change that.
You said that chakras manifest things, correct? That sounds like a pretty specific point to me. You are stating that as fact, right? That sounds sort of like you're trying to prove something to me.
Water is more than one "substance." You're talking about heat? This is yet another normal factor that you are complicating for no reason. Do you know what Occam's razor is?
So, are there people who get more energy from their chakras than their food? Who are these people? Yes, let's go with EMFs. I'm pretty sure they're physical though... Okay, they are everywhere. Now, what eastern scientist says that they exist? A good one please. Not one of their "creationist" type "scientists". You're saying that my body can't make energy without those chakras... give me evidence. Back up your sources here. You're a creationist? That will never surprise me. It IS different. Look into evolution one day. Evolution has some very nice explanations for the origin of life and how it's developed over time. Sorry, but we can't talk about that anymore. No more religion talk.
Have you tested what you believe? Good tests I mean. I want to see some tests that I or anyone else can use and verify the same data you got. Can you give me some of those? PsiPog is not meant for fluff. If someone says that they're personal experience is "I can fly to the moon with my mind!" we're not expected to believe them and we expect them to back up what they say. Well, JoeT has a post on telekinesis I think. Look it up. He has some 14 pages or more of scientific evidence supporting the existence of telekinesis. That's another topic entirely. I don't ask people because of all those pages and what not. You don't HAVE to find proof for me. You can continue spouting your message as long as you don't break the rule. But intelligent people will generally not believe you. The majority of your fans will probably be thirteen year old guys who will quit in a week or two. The only reason I find lack of "scientificness" in what you say is because it does lack "scientificness." Not because I dislike what you say. Yes, I'm missing out on things like "faith." I'm happier that way. I think for myself, I can test what I believe time and time again, and so on. Unlike you I don't have a closed mind. I am willing to change my belief when I see good strong evidence supporting that. You should try to open your mind a little... it might do you wonders.
I'll get around to reading those one day. You seem to make a lot of appeals to a higher authority though. Just because an expert says something doesn't mean I will believe it. Hell, I wouldn't believe anything Darwin, Einstein, Gould, or Hawking have to say if they weren't able to back it up... even after they've done everything that they have. All of them idiots? Maybe, I don't know. A lot of people feel the same thing when doing different things. Drugs, alcohol, OBEs, getting up to fast, etc. Just because a lot of people agree on something doesn't make it true. The world being flat for example... they have no real evidence suggesting that it was flat. Argumentum ad populum. |
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| Posted on Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:28 pm | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Rahmid
Joined: 14 Apr 2006 |
Ok,
Daniel and Roy, what is the point of this? Are you trying to call MA a fluff bunny? Are you trying to get the talk of chakra's banned? What do you want? IMO, this is all pretty childish. Chakras are a belief. ALLLLL it is. It's almost impossible to prove. MA is saying it's his opinion. Daniel and Roy say they want facts. Well if you can put 100% facts behind an opinion, it wouldn't be a opinion, it would be a fact. I mean I can say movie blah was amazing, but I couldn't put facts behind it. I could say "this part was exhilarating." But thats just something I experienced and thought was amazing, still not proof. Chakras are a belief that so many people have experience it's just an excepted thing by some people. In this example, is where it's close to religion. But it's like any other psionic art where it cant totally be proven, yet can be practiced and have results. This is why I ask again, do you want chakra-talk banned? I'd rather just get a quick straight answer from all the mods, instead of watching you slowly break down a very smart person just becuase he doesn't have numbers behind him. We all know MA is going to "lose" this. He'll never be able to change your minds just by talk, just like trying to prove PK and prove RVing, it cant be done by talk. so any-who *whistles off into the distance* Rahmid |
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